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Strange result from straightening

 
 
Peabody
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      10-21-2009
I took pictures of a friend's paintings with my superb Canon A590IS
at the camera's full 8mp. With mixed results.

Well, I thought it did ok except for the slight bowing of all the
edges. I guess I should have moved farther away and zoomed in to
reduce that.

Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
which seemed to go ok.

The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
the straightening. But the file size went from the original 3296kb
down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.

I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. But I don't
understand why not, given the difference in file size. Can anyone
tell me what may be going on?





 
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Jürgen Exner
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      10-21-2009
Peabody <> wrote:
>Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
>called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
>which seemed to go ok.
>
>The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
>3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
>the straightening.


5% difference as the result of some editing seems to be normal.

>But the file size went from the original 3296kb
>down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.


Then you used a higher JPEG compression level when saving the edited
file.

>I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. But I don't
>understand why not, given the difference in file size. Can anyone
>tell me what may be going on?


Look closely at a full-size version (there are no 3209x2406 monitors, so
you have to zoom in all the way) and you should be able to notice quite
a few more compression artifacts.
Of course, for a web page or even computer viewing it doesn't matter at
all because even high-resolution monitors are only 1/4 the size of the
picture. It only becomes relevant when you want to print a large print.

jue
 
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sobriquet
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      10-21-2009
On 21 okt, 02:32, Peabody <waybackNO784SPA...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I took pictures of a friend's paintings with my superb Canon A590IS
> at the camera's full 8mp. *With mixed results.
>
> Well, I thought it did ok except for the slight bowing of all the
> edges. *I guess I should have moved farther away and zoomed in to
> reduce that.
>
> Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
> called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
> which seemed to go ok.
>
> The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
> 3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
> the straightening. *But the file size went from the original 3296kb
> down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.
>
> I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. *But I don't
> understand why not, given the difference in file size. *Can anyone
> tell me what may be going on?


The quality settings for jpg compression can have a big impact on
filesize, despite
the fact that there is little or no apparent visual distinction
between the large and the smaller file.
 
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Paul Furman
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      10-21-2009
Peabody wrote:
> I took pictures of a friend's paintings with my superb Canon A590IS
> at the camera's full 8mp. With mixed results.
>
> Well, I thought it did ok except for the slight bowing of all the
> edges. I guess I should have moved farther away and zoomed in to
> reduce that.


Yep that usually helps. Barrel distortion can also be fixed with
software, I'm not sure which affordably or easily though.


> Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
> called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
> which seemed to go ok.
>
> The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
> 3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
> the straightening. But the file size went from the original 3296kb
> down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.
>
> I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. But I don't
> understand why not, given the difference in file size. Can anyone
> tell me what may be going on?


Like others said, jpeg compression settings... zoom in ridiculously
close and look at smooth graded areas for blocky shapes of various sizes.

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam
 
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More Info
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-21-2009
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:32:58 -0500, Peabody <>
wrote:

>I took pictures of a friend's paintings with my superb Canon A590IS
>at the camera's full 8mp. With mixed results.
>
>Well, I thought it did ok except for the slight bowing of all the
>edges. I guess I should have moved farther away and zoomed in to
>reduce that.
>
>Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
>called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
>which seemed to go ok.
>
>The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
>3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
>the straightening. But the file size went from the original 3296kb
>down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.
>
>I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. But I don't
>understand why not, given the difference in file size. Can anyone
>tell me what may be going on?
>


It sounds like your editor auto-crops on rotations. Many editors have
options for this, crop or no crop on rotations. If you don't allow
auto-cropping, then long thin triangular slivers of black, white, or chosen
background color are filled-in at the edges to compensate for the now
rotated image. Filling in the gaps where the rotation can no longer match
the original file-dimension edges.

If this is an important project, I highly stress that you obtain any editor
that has Lanczos-8 (or lesser Lanczos-X versions) as a resampling algorithm
in its options. This prevents the image from losing detail during slight
rotations. Using bicubic resampling, as exists as the only option in all
versions of PhotoShop, (bicubic being the most common, fast, and acceptable
algorithm in popular use) during rotations or resizings will cause you to
lose as much as 50% of original image details due to its inherent softening
of all edge detail during resampling. I find it extremely odd that people
will easily pay more than $5000 for camera gear, then spend another $700
for an editor that causes them to lose all the details in their images,
reducing their cameras' image resolution to something they could have
bought in the toy-aisle. Some people aren't too bright.

Photoline <www.pl32.net> is an extremely good (more feature-rich and more
capable than PhotoShop in fact) inexpensive editor that has Lanczos-3 and
Lanczos-8 options for all rotations and resizings. It also includes other
algorithms (bicubic, linear, quick (whatever "quick" is)), which I
sometimes use if I intentionally want to soften image details. The
difference in retained details between a bicubic and Lanczos-8 resize or
rotation is very obvious when you have the two available to compare.

Filesize changes have already been explained to you by others.

 
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Peabody
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      10-21-2009
More Info says...

> It sounds like your editor auto-crops on rotations. Many
> editors have options for this, crop or no crop on
> rotations. If you don't allow auto-cropping, then long
> thin triangular slivers of black, white, or chosen
> background color are filled-in at the edges to
> compensate for the now rotated image. Filling in the
> gaps where the rotation can no longer match the original
> file-dimension edges.


Well, the Photo!Editor software I used is freeware, and I
found no Options settings at all in it - nothing to adjust
the degree of jpeg compression, and no setting for
auto-crop. But I think you must me right because there are
no thin slivers in the straightened version.

> If this is an important project, I highly stress that
> you obtain any editor that has Lanczos-8 (or lesser
> Lanczos-X versions) as a resampling algorithm in its
> options.


Please note that I said I used a Canon A590 to take the
pictures. So, not to shock you, but Photoshop isn't in my
budget. Well how about Irfanview? Will it straighten and
resample/resize properly? Or maybe XnView or Faststone?

By the way, I did find a freeware lossless jpeg cropper that
crops on 8-pixel boundaries without resampling what's left,
so there is no generational loss from the cropping. Which
is fine so long as those boundaries are acceptable cropping
points.

Well, at this point the pictures I've produced are far
better than what he had, and plenty good enough for online
use, which is what he wanted them for. If he gets to the
point of making large prints, I would probably suggest he
hire a pro photographer who knows what he's doing and has a
fine camera. For what it's worth, though, I found that
photographing the paintings outside in the shade, with
manual white balance, produced really good results, and the
colors, on my monitor at least, were spot on.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

 
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Tim Conway
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      10-21-2009

"Peabody" <> wrote in message
news:_EsDm.311$...
>I took pictures of a friend's paintings with my superb Canon A590IS
> at the camera's full 8mp. With mixed results.
>
> Well, I thought it did ok except for the slight bowing of all the
> edges. I guess I should have moved farther away and zoomed in to
> reduce that.
>
> Anyway, one of the pictures was a bit tilted, so I used a program
> called Photo! Editor by VicMan Software to straighten the picture,
> which seemed to go ok.
>
> The resolution of the jpeg went from the original 3264x2488 to
> 3209x2406, with is about a 5% reduction in pixels as a result of
> the straightening. But the file size went from the original 3296kb
> down to 1191kb, a 64% reduction.
>
> I'm hard pressed to see any visual difference. But I don't
> understand why not, given the difference in file size. Can anyone
> tell me what may be going on?
>

try PTLens stand alone software. Download the trial version and
use it on 10 images free. If you like it, pay $25.

http://epaperpress.com/ptlens/


 
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      10-22-2009
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:43:30 -0500, Peabody <>
wrote:


>Please note that I said I used a Canon A590 to take the
>pictures. So, not to shock you, but Photoshop isn't in my
>budget. Well how about Irfanview? Will it straighten and
>resample/resize properly? Or maybe XnView or Faststone?
>


Don't think less of that camera because of cost. In the hands of a talented
photographer any camera can produce excellent results. The Canon Powershots
are not to be taken lightly just because of cost. I've won several
international awards with the ones I've used.

While I've not used XnView, it does contain more advanced features, and
even includes a Lanczos resampling option for resizings. (I just checked
it. Installed it months ago to see if it's any good, but never played with
it til now.) But I'm unaware if Lanczos is used for rotations, where it is
the most needed and beneficial to have that option. There is no resampling
algorithm option on XnView's rotation tool. But it does have the crop or
no-crop options for rotations. There you could see what I was talking
about.

It sounds like XnView might be a better editor for you. GIMP being the
pinnacle of all freeware editors.

See this page for other editors you can play with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...aphics_editors
Many of them are excellent freeware and more than most people need.

If you can find an earlier version of Paint Shop Pro, v9.x or v10.x for a
few dollars (v9.x is often sold for $5, or just shared because it's so
old), it has some really nice features. Including geometric lens correction
filters (pincushion and barrel distortion correction, one of the problems
you mentioned), as well as a very good noise-removal tool and
sensor-blooming (color fringing) correction tool. I wish Photoline had that
latter one. I keep an earlier version of Paint Shop Pro installed just for
that color-fringing correction tool alone. It was implemented so well.

I just did a Google search for: plugin freeware pincushion barrel
correction

You might want to look into this link I found:
<http://wareseeker.com/Graphic-Apps/lens-correction-1.0.zip/2e711ae14> or
do that Google search for others listed. Though I've never used this plugin
it should work fine with XnView, IrfanView, etc. Very few "photoshop
plugins" are photoshop-ONLY. Most all of them work with any editor that
supports plugins. There are only a rare few specialty plugins that are
photoshop specific, and none of the freeware ones are, that I know of.

The suggested (by someone else) PTLens plugin is also excellent for lens
geometry corrections, but I never use it for that (my editor contains its
own geometry correction tools). I use PTLens for its better
chromatic-aberration (CA) correction feature. For simple pincushion and
barrel distortion correction you shouldn't have to pay for an advanced
plugin.

>By the way, I did find a freeware lossless jpeg cropper that
>crops on 8-pixel boundaries without resampling what's left,
>so there is no generational loss from the cropping. Which
>is fine so long as those boundaries are acceptable cropping
>points.


If you really get into photography, again I suggest you look into getting
Photoline someday (not bloatware PhotoShop). It's the only editor out there
that is capable of doing truly lossless JPG editing. It doesn't put the
data through the JPG algorithm again unless you specifically choose a
higher compression level than the original. The only data that is changed
in the resulting saved file are the pixels that you specifically changed.
It doesn't compound compression artifacts during multiple re-loads and
re-saves. It also is blind to those JPG 8 or 16 pixel block boundaries.
Edit to any pixel dimensions you want and it won't jump to a multiple of 8
or 16 when saved

>
>Well, at this point the pictures I've produced are far
>better than what he had, and plenty good enough for online
>use, which is what he wanted them for. If he gets to the
>point of making large prints, I would probably suggest he
>hire a pro photographer who knows what he's doing and has a
>fine camera. For what it's worth, though, I found that
>photographing the paintings outside in the shade, with
>manual white balance, produced really good results, and the
>colors, on my monitor at least, were spot on.
>


A "pro" could do no better, and might even do worse than what you could do
with your gear, when used properly. Lots of people make money, or try to
make money, with their cameras but it doesn't mean they should be allowed
to ever have a camera. If someone gives a snapshooter $0.25 for a poorly
done shot of their baby they can claim they are a "pro". Many wedding
parties get scammed daily by self-appointed "Pros". They need nothing more
than a printer for their business cards and a fancy looking camera to
impress their potential marks (victims). The world (and news-groups) are
crawling wall to wall with "Insta-Pros".

If you are not yet familiar with it, you might want to check out the
software add-on for your A590, called CHDK. It will allow your "lowly"
camera to do more than any DSLR on earth. You have more camera-power in
your hands than I think you realize. http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

 
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      10-22-2009

>
>You might want to look into this link I found:
><http://wareseeker.com/Graphic-Apps/lens-correction-1.0.zip/2e711ae14> or
>do that Google search for others listed. Though I've never used this plugin
>it should work fine with XnView, IrfanView, etc. Very few "photoshop
>plugins" are photoshop-ONLY. Most all of them work with any editor that
>supports plugins. There are only a rare few specialty plugins that are
>photoshop specific, and none of the freeware ones are, that I know of.


I was going to get that plugin to see if it was any good, and found that
all the download links are dead. However, I did eventually find it here:

<http://www.photo-plugins.com/Plugins/Plugins/Lens-Correction.html>

Download here:

<http://www.photo-plugins.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid= 9&Itemid=43>

 
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      10-22-2009
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:24:27 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2009-10-21 18:59:07 -0700, More Info <> said:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:43:30 -0500, Peabody <>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Please note that I said I used a Canon A590 to take the
>>> pictures. So, not to shock you, but Photoshop isn't in my
>>> budget. Well how about Irfanview? Will it straighten and
>>> resample/resize properly? Or maybe XnView or Faststone?
>>>

>>
>> Don't think less of that camera because of cost. In the hands of a talented
>> photographer any camera can produce excellent results. The Canon Powershots
>> are not to be taken lightly just because of cost. I've won several
>> international awards with the ones I've used.

>
>...and which International awards would those be.
>Name, date and citation might be interesting to see.
>
>The Nobel Fantasy Prize perhaps?


Do you honestly think I'd let a useless troll like you enjoy my good
photography? Or that I can somehow be manipulated by a loser like you into
doing so? You're more stupid than I thought. Wow.

Your lack of intellect duly noted. But then, we all already knew that now,
didn't we. Even you.



 
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