Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Programming > XML > Re: BBC news story: Judge bans Microsoft Word sales

Reply
Thread Tools

Re: BBC news story: Judge bans Microsoft Word sales

 
 
Piet van Oostrum
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-17-2009
>>>>> Pete Becker <> (PB) wrote:

>PB> The cited news article is rather superficial. Be careful about drawing
>PB> conclusions about how the legal system works from reading such sources.
>PB> They're often wrong.


>PB> The patent itself was filed in 1994 (not 1998, as the article says) and
>PB> issued in 1998. It mentions SGML (the parent of XML) in several places, and
>PB> says that the method at issue is fundamentally different because it does
>PB> not put structural information in the data stream. More particularly:


>PB> Thus, in sharp contrast to the prior art the present
>PB> invention is based on the practice of separating encoding
>PB> conventions from the content of a document. The invention
>PB> does not use embedded metacoding to differentiate the content
>PB> of the document, but rather, the metacodes of the document are
>PB> separated from the content and held in distinct storage in a
>PB> structure called a metacode map, whereas document content is
>PB> held in a mapped content area. Raw content is an extreme
>PB> example of mapped content wherein the latter is totally
>PB> unstructured and has no embedded metacodes in the data stream.


>PB> That doesn't sound like a description of XML.


Well, read the whole patent. What they do is process a document with
embedded markup (like troff, SGML, XML, or maybe even TeX) in such a way
that inside the program the markup is separated from the plain text. The
external representation is still the marked up text. So it does apply to
XML. This is quite a primitive way of parsing the markup. It is just
scanning the input until you find a tag (called metacode in the patent)
copying the text before the tag to an output area, and copying the tag
to a list of tags (called a metacode map in the patent). So compared to
modern parsing techniques there are two differences: (1) nowaday you
usually build a parse tree; they have just a degenerate tree (only a
list). (2) usually the plain text is put in the leaves of the tree; they
have the text in one contiguous area, and the `parse tree' contains
pointers or indices to this area.

The advantage of their structure comes when you need more than one tag
structure on top of the text: for example when you both have the
hierarchical XML structure and a structure with lines and pages.

SGML has the possibility of having more than one structure in the same
document and that fact is mentioned in the patent.

The only innovative idea in the patent is this separation because it
makes it easier to do editing on the document when you have more than
one structure on top of it. And I don't know how innovative it is
because once you need to edit a marked up text with more than one (markup)
structure on top of it, this is quite a logical choice. And moreover
ideas cannot be patented, so the idea doesn't count (but IANAL).

Once you have this idea, implementing it is peanuts. You could give this
to any student that attends a beginner's programming course when they
have had strings, arrays and loops, and they should be able to solve it.

So the patent is about the transformation of the marked up text to the
separated data structure and v.v. and about calculating another
structure from the first one, plus some minor other things. I find it
really silly that you can get a patent for this kind of thing.

I am writing a small Python program that illustrates the patented
algorithms.
--
Piet van Oostrum <>
URL: http://pietvanoostrum.com [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email:
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Paul Thompson
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-19-2009
On Aug 17, 5:31*pm, Piet van Oostrum <p...@cs.uu.nl> wrote:
> >>>>> Pete Becker <p...@versatilecoding.com> (PB) wrote:

> >PB> The cited news article is rather superficial. Be careful about drawing
> >PB> conclusions about how the legal system works from reading such sources.
> >PB> They're often wrong.
> >PB> The patent itself was filed in 1994 (not 1998, as the article says) and
> >PB> issued in 1998. It mentions SGML (the parent of XML) in several places, and
> >PB> says that the method at issue is fundamentally different because it does
> >PB> not put structural information in the data stream. More particularly:
> >PB> * * *Thus, in sharp contrast to the prior art the present
> >PB> * * *invention is based on the practice of separating encoding
> >PB> * * *conventions from the content of a document. The invention
> >PB> * * *does not use embedded metacoding to differentiate the content
> >PB> * * *of the document, but rather, the metacodes of the document are
> >PB> * * *separated from the content and held in distinct storage in a
> >PB> * * *structure called a metacode map, whereas document content is
> >PB> * * *held in a mapped content area. Raw content is an extreme
> >PB> * * *example of mapped content wherein the latter is totally
> >PB> * * *unstructured and has no embedded metacodes in the data stream.
> >PB> That doesn't sound like a description of XML.

>
> Well, read the whole patent. What they do is process a document with
> embedded markup (like troff, SGML, XML, or maybe even TeX) in such a way
> that inside the program the markup is separated from the plain text. The
> external representation is still the marked up text. So it does apply to
> XML. This is quite a primitive way of parsing the markup. It is just
> scanning the input until you find a tag (called metacode in the patent)
> copying the text before the tag to an output area, and copying the tag
> to a list of tags (called a metacode map in the patent). So compared to
> modern parsing techniques there are two differences: (1) nowaday you
> usually build a parse tree; they have just a degenerate tree (only a
> list). (2) usually the plain text is put in the leaves of the tree; they
> have the text in one contiguous area, and the `parse tree' contains
> pointers or indices to this area.
>
> The advantage of their structure comes when you need more than one tag
> structure on top of the text: for example when you both have the
> hierarchical XML structure and a structure with lines and pages.
>
> SGML has the possibility of having more than one structure in the same
> document and that fact is mentioned in the patent.
>
> The only innovative idea in the patent is this separation because it
> makes it easier to do editing on the document when you have more than
> one structure on top of it. And I don't know how innovative it is
> because once you need to edit a marked up text with more than one (markup)
> structure on top of it, this is quite a logical choice. And moreover
> ideas cannot be patented, so the idea doesn't count (but IANAL).
>
> Once you have this idea, implementing it is peanuts. You could give this
> to any student that attends a beginner's programming course when they
> have had strings, arrays and loops, and they should be able to solve it.
>
> So the patent is about the transformation of the marked up text to the
> separated data structure and v.v. and about calculating another
> structure from the first one, plus some minor other things. I find it
> really silly that you can get a patent for this kind of thing.
>
> I am writing a small Python program that illustrates the patented
> algorithms.
> --
> Piet van Oostrum <p...@cs.uu.nl>
> URL:http://pietvanoostrum.com[PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
> Private email: p...@vanoostrum.org


Isn't this very very similar to the weave and tangle system used in
LaTeX/TeX?
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Joe Kesselman
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-19-2009
> Isn't this very very similar to the weave and tangle system used in
> LaTeX/TeX?


That sort of question is precisely why the patent office has started
experimenting with crowdsourcing the search for prior art. They're
overworked and underinformed, and they know it, so they've asked the
rest of us to help. Sorta clever, actually...
 
Reply With Quote
 
The Magpie
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-19-2009
Paul Thompson wrote:
>
> Isn't this very very similar to the weave and tangle system used in
> LaTeX/TeX?


Its very, very, similar to a coding stream definition I put together
in 1995 for an early travel planning aggregator in Manchester, UK (you
know, the people the travel agents get in touch with to find holidays).
 
Reply With Quote
 
Piet van Oostrum
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      08-20-2009
>>>>> Paul Thompson <> (PT) wrote:

>PT> Isn't this very very similar to the weave and tangle system used in
>PT> LaTeX/TeX?


It's not on that level. The patent is just about a specific internal
representation of a marked up text: separate the text and the markup,
such that the text is just a contiguous string and the markup is in a
list (array) with pointers to the text. And about the conversion between
the external representation with the markup embedded and the internal
representation described above. And about making changes to the text and
the markup independently. And a few things related to that, for
example having two or more of these structures on the same text where
the text will be shared.

Weave and tangle do more than that. Moreover the patent applies in the
context of a textprocessor (i.e. an interactive program), and weave and
tangle are not that.
--
Piet van Oostrum <>
URL: http://pietvanoostrum.com [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email:
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re: BBC news story: Judge bans Microsoft Word sales Peter Flynn XML 0 08-17-2009 08:44 PM
Cruddy P&S sales drop for Sony, DSLR sales jump Rich Digital Photography 0 08-01-2009 12:29 AM
P&S sales continue to tank while DSLR sales thrive Rich Digital Photography 61 07-13-2009 07:30 PM
DVD Sales Join CD Sales Heading South. Allan DVD Video 15 05-01-2006 06:14 PM
microsoft.public.dotnet.faqs,microsoft.public.dotnet.framework,microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.windowsforms,microsoft.public.dotnet.general,microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb Charles A. Lackman ASP .Net 1 12-08-2004 07:08 PM



Advertisments
 



1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57