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Quoting http://docs.python.org/3.1/library/r...#random.gauss:
Gaussian distribution. mu is the mean, and sigma is the
standard deviation. This is slightly faster than the
normalvariate() function defined below.

So since both are offered and gauss is faster, I assume it
must have some offsetting disadvantage. What is it?

Thank you,
Alan Isaac

On Aug 15, 12:49*pm, Alan G Isaac <alan.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quotinghttp://docs.python.org/3.1/library/random.html#random.gauss:
> * * Gaussian distribution. mu is the mean, and sigma is the
> * * standard deviation. This is slightly faster than the
> * * normalvariate() function defined below.
>
> So since both are offered and gauss is faster, I assume it
> must have some offsetting disadvantage. *What is it?

random.gauss is not thread safe.

I'm kind of surprised the html docs don't mention this; the docstring
does.


Carl Banks

> On Aug 15, 12:49 pm, Alan G Isaac <alan.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Quotinghttp://docs.python.org/3.1/library/random.html#random.gauss:
>> Gaussian distribution. mu is the mean, and sigma is the
>> standard deviation. This is slightly faster than the
>> normalvariate() function defined below.
>>
>> So since both are offered and gauss is faster, I assume it
>> must have some offsetting disadvantage. What is it?



On 8/15/2009 4:26 PM Carl Banks apparently wrote:
> random.gauss is not thread safe.
>
> I'm kind of surprised the html docs don't mention this; the docstring
> does.



Thank you,
Alan Isaac

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:34:36 -0600, John Haggerty <>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> What does the term "thread safe" mean exactly. I never had to program with
> "threads" before

That, part way through the logic of the function, control could be
switched to a different thread which call the same function... This
second call would change some of the internal values and may then be
preempted and control returned to the first thread, which continues the
rest of the function with different values then it had when first
preempted.

A very contrived example, untested of course, consider it
pseudo-code...

startt = None

def atimer():
global startt
startt = time.time()
time.sleep(5)
print time.time() - startt

t1 = threading.thread(atimer)
t2 = threading.thread(atimer)
t1.start()
t2.start()

Say t1 gets all the way up to the sleep call, and (since sleep is a
releasing call), t2 then starts. t2 changes the value of startt; and
sleeps... both sleep and presuming the resolution is fine enough, t1
resumes, and prints a delta time that is incorrect -- it is printing
the time difference from when t2 started to sleep, not from when t1
started to sleep.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:59:09 -0600, John Haggerty <>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> Interesting so it seems that the compiler(c/c++)interpreter(perl,
> python)/vm(java) doesn't do this?

No language can guard against independent access of a shared/global
object by multiple threads... Look at Java's "synchronized" keyword, for
example.

Though Ada did build tasking and "protected objects" into the
language syntax, rather than making them a library with constraints one
must know of to code against.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

Dennis Lee Bieber <> writes:
> No language can guard against independent access of a shared/global
> object by multiple threads...

Erlang?

> On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 10:18 PM, Paul Rubin <http://>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dennis Lee Bieber <> writes:
>> > Â* Â* Â* No language can guard against independent access of a
>> > shared/global
>> > object by multiple threads...
>>
>> Erlang?

On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:23 AM, John Haggerty<> wrote:
> Erlang I assume is a computer programming language?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_...mming_language)

There's a reason Wikipedia has a search function...

Cheers,
Chris
--
http://blog.rebertia.com

John Haggerty wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <>wrote:
>
>
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:34:36 -0600, John Haggerty <>
>> declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
>>
>>
>>> What does the term "thread safe" mean exactly. I never had to program
>>>
>> with
>>
>>> "threads" before
>>>
>> That, part way through the logic of the function, control could be
>> switched to a different thread which call the same function... This
>> second call would change some of the internal values and may then be
>> preempted and control returned to the first thread, which continues the
>> rest of the function with different values then it had when first
>> preempted.
>>
>> A very contrived example, untested of course, consider it
>> pseudo-code...
>>
>> startt = None
>>
>> def atimer():
>> global startt
>> startt = time.time()
>> time.sleep(5)
>> print time.time() - startt
>>
>> t1 = threading.thread(atimer)
>> t2 = threading.thread(atimer)
>> t1.start()
>> t2.start()
>>
>> Say t1 gets all the way up to the sleep call, and (since sleep is a
>> releasing call), t2 then starts. t2 changes the value of startt; and
>> sleeps... both sleep and presuming the resolution is fine enough, t1
>> resumes, and prints a delta time that is incorrect -- it is printing
>> the time difference from when t2 started to sleep, not from when t1
>> started to sleep.
>> --
>> Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
>> HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>>
>> --
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>>
>
> Interesting so it seems that the compiler(c/c++)interpreter(perl,
> python)/vm(java) doesn't do this?
>
>
It is impossible for a language, vm, or operating system to avoid
threading problems without the programmer's help, except by trivial
means (eg. preventing you from having them at all).

The power of threading is entirely tied up with the features the
environment gives to the developer, and those features come with a risk.

At one extreme is the CP/M model. You start a new program only when you
finish the previous one. So the only communication between them is a
file the first one leaves behind, that the second can look at.

Next is separate processes. If you launch a second process, by default,
they're independent, and not likely to get into trouble. But you can
build pipes or shared memory, or sockets between them, and then you have
to worry about race conditions.

Next is threads, within a single process. At this point, you can share
(global) variables between them, or you can have objects known to both
when the thread is launched. The system cannot tell which ones are
deliberate and which ones are accidental. So a language might give
extra keywords to tell the compiler that certain things should be
protected in certain ways. Or it might give a way to declare a
"per-thread global" that acts like a global to each thread, but is
actually two independent variables from the process point of view.

The only real reason threads are singled out is it's easier to collide
by mistake. But that's also what makes it efficient to "collide" on
purpose.

DaveA

On 15 Aug 2009 21:18:36 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> Dennis Lee Bieber <> writes:
> > No language can guard against independent access of a shared/global
> > object by multiple threads...
>
> Erlang?

Well, if I read the wikipedia link given in a later post,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_...ented_language
(emphasis mine)...

"""
Like operating system processes (and unlike green threads and operating
system threads) they have NO SHARED STATE between them.
"""

which seems to reinforce my statement, not refute it.

Hmmm, except for the facet that the Amiga exec directly passed
memory addresses (no memory protection in the OS, the process sending
was not supposed to touch the memory of the sent message until receiving
the message reply), the Erlang process communication maps very closely
to the Amiga message port system.


(The Amiga was heavily dependent upon message ports: application I/O
request becomes a message to the port of the file system, file system
would map the "file pointer" to an internal table to locate the device,
send a message to the port of the device handler -- device handler would
execute the I/O request, reply to file system, file system would then
reply to application... Having to copy data buffers between processes
would have slowed the system down drastically [8MHz processor, in those
days], so the link-list of messages on a port were typically short,
having a pointer to the actual memory to use)


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

Dennis Lee Bieber <> writes:
> > > No language can guard against independent access of a shared/global
> > > object by multiple threads...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_...mming_language)
> """
> Like operating system processes (and unlike green threads and operating
> system threads) they have NO SHARED STATE between them.
> """
> which seems to reinforce my statement, not refute it.

Id say Erlang guards against independent access of shared/global
objects by not allowing them.

> (The Amiga was heavily dependent upon message ports... Having to
> copy data buffers between processes would have slowed the system
> down drastically [8MHz processor, in those days],

It's perfectly ok for Erlang implementation to just pass pointers
around, when the processes are on the same machine. Erlang prohibits
data mutation so there isn't an issue of a process modifying some
structure while another process is using it.