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Re: UPS goes crazy for a few minutes every night at 11pm

 
 
Nicolaas Hawkins
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-31-2009
On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:32:40 +1200, greg <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<news:gvtfbl$sot$(E-Mail Removed)>:

> Nicolaas Hawkins wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:40:01 +1200, greg <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>> <news:gvtc8t$r1h$(E-Mail Removed)>:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> In message <gvt1ee$8d7$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
>>>>>> accurate frequency reference?
>>>>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.
>>>> Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
>>>>
>>> www.standards.co.nz
>>>
>>> Electricity Regulations 1997,
>>>
>>> 55 Frequency
>>> (1) The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>>> fluctuations.
>>>
>>> sounds like your the one full of shite now!!

>>
>> Hardly news. 'twas ever thus.
>>

>
> gotta agree, wouldn't ever want to be his doctor, imagine the shite
> explosion when the dr. sticks him with a needle!!


Gee, thanks, Greg. NOT a mental image I need so soon after dinner!

--
- Nicolaas
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-31-2009
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim Lawson wrote:

> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>
>>In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
>>>>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs
>>>>> things up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day
>>>>> so the clocks are right.
>>>>
>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
>>>> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
>>>> is it, half a century ...
>>>
>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
>>> oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.

>>
>>Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>
>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and
>>> years.

>>
>>But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
>>accurate frequency reference?

>
> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>
> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
> fluctuations."


1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours?
2) Is there any possible way to stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to
include such a discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that
normal people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the morning?

 
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greg
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-31-2009
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim Lawson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for timing
>>>>>> purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles behind, it speecs
>>>>>> things up a bit to ensure exactly the right number of cycles per day
>>>>>> so the clocks are right.
>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an assumption.
>>>>> Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been available for, how long
>>>>> is it, half a century ...
>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate quartz
>>>> oscilator to just use one of the lines from the transformer to count.
>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>
>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years and
>>>> years.
>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
>>> accurate frequency reference?

>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>
>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>> fluctuations."

>
> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours?


hertz means cycles per seconds dumb ****, 50 cycles per second

> 2) Is there any possible way to stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to
> include such a discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that
> normal people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the morning?
>


**** off and get a life moron
 
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Enkidu
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-31-2009
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message <gvt1ee$8d7$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
>>> accurate frequency reference?

>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

>
> Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?
>

See below. I did have a more explicit document but I couldn't find it.

Cheers,

Cliff

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...lity_frequency

----------Quote---------------------
Long-term stability and clock synchronization

Regulation of power system frequency for timekeeping accuracy was not
commonplace until after 1926 and the invention of the electric clock.
An electric clock is a clock that is powered by electricity instead of
powered manually or by other sources of energy, specifically in order to
wind the mainspring or to drive the pendulum or oscillator....
driven by a synchronous motor. Network operators will regulate the
daily average frequency so that clocks stay within a few seconds of
correct time. In practice the nominal frequency is raised or lowered by
a specific percentage to maintain synchronization. Over the course of a
day, the average frequency is maintained at the nominal value within a
few hundred parts per million. In the continental Europe, also referred
to as mainland Europe or simply the Continent, is the continent of
Europe, explicitly excluding European islands and, at times, peninsulas....
an UCTE grid, the deviation between network phase time and UTC is
calculated at 08:00 each day in a control center in Switzerland
Switzerland

Switzerland is a landlocked Swiss Alps country of roughly 7.7 million
people in Western Europe with an area of 41,285 km?. Switzerland is a
federal republic consisting of 26 states called Cantons of Switzerland....
, and the target frequency is then adjusted by up to 0.02% from 50 Hz
as needed, to ensure a long-term frequency average of exactly 36002450
cycles per day is maintained. In North America, whenever the error
exceeds 2 seconds for the east, 3 seconds for Texas, or 10 seconds for
the west, a correction of 0.02 Hz (0.033%) is applied. Time error
corrections start and end either on the hour or on the half hour. A
real-time frequency meter for power generation in the United Kingdom
United Kingdom

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known
as the United Kingdom , the UK or Britain,is a sovereign state located
off the northwestern coast of continental Europe....
is available online.(*) Smaller power systems may not maintain
frequency with the same degree of accuracy.


--

The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
the same old personalities show through.
 
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Enkidu
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-31-2009
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim Lawson
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
>>>> transformer to count.
>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>
>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
>>>> and years.
>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
>>> an accurate frequency reference?

>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>
>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>> fluctuations."

>
> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
> the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
> would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
> to use to wake up for work in the morning?
>

That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
standard, not a regulation.

Cheers,

Cliff

--

The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
the same old personalities show through.
 
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Malcolm Moore
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-01-2009
On Sun, 31 May 2009 19:11:13 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:

>In message <gvt1ee$8d7$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide an
>>> accurate frequency reference?

>>
>> Its part of the standards for the power supplied.

>
>Could you cite a site on which you sighted this ... shite?


It's one of the Electricity Commision's functions.

Look at
<http://www.electricitycommission.govt.nz/rulesandregs/rules>

Part C Common Quality contains the following.

<begin quote>

2.2.5
Manage time error
Act as a reasonable and prudent system operator with the objective of
ensuring frequency time error is not greater than five seconds of New
Zealand standard time; and
2.2.6
Eliminate time error once a day
Act as a reasonable and prudent system operator operator with the
objective of ensuring that at least once every day the frequency time
error is eliminated.

<end quote>

--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address
 
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greg
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-01-2009
Enkidu wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim Lawson
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
>>>>> transformer to count.
>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>>
>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
>>>>> and years.
>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
>>>> an accurate frequency reference?
>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>>
>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary fluctuations."

>>
>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
>> the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
>> would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
>> to use to wake up for work in the morning?
>>

> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
> regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
> standard, not a regulation.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff
>

at least the tosser lawrence (doesn't that name sound gay?) has shut up
on the topic.
 
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greg
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-01-2009
Tim Lawson wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
> <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim Lawson
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
>>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
>>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
>>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
>>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
>>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
>>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
>>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
>>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
>>>>>>> transformer to count.
>>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
>>>>>>> and years.
>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to provide
>>>>>> an accurate frequency reference?
>>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>>>>> fluctuations."
>>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to stretch
>>>> the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a discrepancy, that
>>>> would be usable in a clock radio that normal people might be expected
>>>> to use to wake up for work in the morning?
>>>>
>>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The actual
>>> regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is merely a
>>> standard, not a regulation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Cliff

>> Hi:
>>
>> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
>>
>> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem obvious
>> with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find indications of what
>> accuracy is actually achieved?
>>
>> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
>> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
>> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the required
>> standard for power utilities in NZ.
>>
>> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/b...rial-customers
>>
>>
>>

> Whoops, should have said:
>
> Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard



The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just as
the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are based on
the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the regulations
take prescient over the standards.

 
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~misfit~
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-02-2009
Somewhere on teh intarwebs greg wrote:
> Tim Lawson wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
>> <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim
>>>>> Lawson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>>>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
>>>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
>>>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
>>>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
>>>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
>>>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
>>>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
>>>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
>>>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
>>>>>>>> transformer to count.
>>>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
>>>>>>>> and years.
>>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to
>>>>>>> provide an accurate frequency reference?
>>>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>>>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>>>>>> fluctuations."
>>>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to
>>>>> stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a
>>>>> discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that normal
>>>>> people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the
>>>>> morning?
>>>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The
>>>> actual regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is
>>>> merely a standard, not a regulation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Cliff
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
>>>
>>> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem
>>> obvious with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find
>>> indications of what accuracy is actually achieved?
>>>
>>> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
>>> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
>>> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the
>>> required standard for power utilities in NZ.
>>>
>>> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/b...rial-customers
>>>
>>>
>>>

>> Whoops, should have said:
>>
>> Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard

>
>
> The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just
> as the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are
> based on the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the
> regulations take prescient over the standards.


"prescient"? I knew you were going to say that. It sets a new PRECEDENT for
my ESP.

That's the trouble with spell-checkers, you need to have some idea of how a
word is spelled before you run them.
--
Shaun.

"Build a man a fire, and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and
he`ll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett, Jingo.


 
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greg
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-02-2009
~misfit~ wrote:
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs greg wrote:
>> Tim Lawson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +1200, Tim Lawson
>>> <tlawson@remove_this.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:34 +1200, Enkidu
>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Tim
>>>>>> Lawson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:31:52 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>>>>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <gvsuic$4n9$(E-Mail Removed)>, Richard wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <gvsk0o$9j3$(E-Mail Removed)>, steve wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of places which assume exactly 50Hz for
>>>>>>>>>>> timing purposes. Is the power company is a few cycles
>>>>>>>>>>> behind, it speecs things up a bit to ensure exactly the
>>>>>>>>>>> right number of cycles per day so the clocks are right.
>>>>>>>>>> I've never heard of anybody stupid enough to make such an
>>>>>>>>>> assumption. Cheap quartz-crystal oscillators have only been
>>>>>>>>>> available for, how long is it, half a century ...
>>>>>>>>> Almost all clock radios count cycles - cheaper then an accurate
>>>>>>>>> quartz oscilator to just use one of the lines from the
>>>>>>>>> transformer to count.
>>>>>>>> Bit difficult to do that on batteries, or through a DC adaptor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also mains powered analog clocks have also done this for years
>>>>>>>>> and years.
>>>>>>>> But since when have the power companies been obligated to
>>>>>>>> provide an accurate frequency reference?
>>>>>>> Try Electricity Regulations 1997, regulation 55, subclause 1:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The frequency of electricity supplied by any person must be
>>>>>>> maintained within 1.5% of 50 hertz, except for momentary
>>>>>>> fluctuations."
>>>>>> 1) What is 1.5% of 24 hours? 2) Is there any possible way to
>>>>>> stretch the meaning of "exactly 50Hz" to include such a
>>>>>> discrepancy, that would be usable in a clock radio that normal
>>>>>> people might be expected to use to wake up for work in the
>>>>>> morning?
>>>>> That's for people connecting generators to the national grid. The
>>>>> actual regulations are in fact much tougher than that, which is
>>>>> merely a standard, not a regulation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> Funny that it's called a standard, when it's merely a regulation.
>>>>
>>>> Where would I find the statutory regulations (they don't seem
>>>> obvious with Google searches) and any idea where I'd find
>>>> indications of what accuracy is actually achieved?
>>>>
>>>> As a matter of interest, this link shows the Vector performance for
>>>> commercail and industrial customers - their guaranteed frequency
>>>> accuracy also appears to be +- 1.5%, which is apparently the
>>>> required standard for power utilities in NZ.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.vectorelectricity.co.nz/b...rial-customers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Whoops, should have said:
>>>
>>> Funny that it's called a regulation, when it's merely a standard

>>
>> The electrical regulations are legislation, and defined in law, just
>> as the traffic regulations are part of the law. The standards are
>> based on the law, where the standards are unclear or in conflict the
>> regulations take prescient over the standards.

>
> "prescient"? I knew you were going to say that. It sets a new PRECEDENT for
> my ESP.
>
> That's the trouble with spell-checkers, you need to have some idea of how a
> word is spelled before you run them.



Ok my spel chequer is not very god,
 
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