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<marquee> alternative

 
 
Adrienne Boswell
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      05-11-2009
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben C <(E-Mail Removed)> writing
in news:(E-Mail Removed):

> On 2009-05-11, Andy Dingley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [...]
>> * <marquee> is purely presentational markup, no describing the
>> structure of the content.

>
> How is it any more presentational than, say, <h1> or <p>?
>


H1 is a heading, P is a paragraph, they are structural elements.

Marquee, like B, I and U are purely presentational.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
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Jonathan N. Little
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      05-11-2009
Ben C wrote:
> On 2009-05-11, Adrienne Boswell <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben C <(E-Mail Removed)> writing
>> in news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>
>>> On 2009-05-11, Andy Dingley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> * <marquee> is purely presentational markup, no describing the
>>>> structure of the content.
>>> How is it any more presentational than, say, <h1> or <p>?
>>>

>> H1 is a heading, P is a paragraph, they are structural elements.
>>
>> Marquee, like B, I and U are purely presentational.

>
> But it's not like B, I or U. The word "marquee" does not describe
> anything to do with text presentation. It means a tent, but also the
> awning or canopy in front of a hotel, and by extension any kind of
> banner designed to attract attention. It is similar to a heading only
> grander.


No, <h1> & <p> as Adrienne states have a particular function, H1 is a
heading, P is a paragraph they may have different styling but their
function to the document remains the same.

Marquee describes a particular "look" or style where the text ticks
across the screen. It may be a heading, but it may not. A marquee will
not be a marquee if in its appearance is does not tick across like a
marquee. In contrast a heading will still be a heading even if it does
not have the default "look" of being bolder, bigger, and with and
vertical margin...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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Andy Dingley
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      05-11-2009
On 11 May, 14:40, Ben C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On 2009-05-11, Andy Dingley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > * *<marquee> is purely presentational markup, no describing the
> > structure of the content.

>
> How is it any more presentational than, say, <h1> or <p>?


Because <h1> is a heading and is (by and large) used for such a
purpose fairly consistently.

<marquee> is used for scrolling tickers, where the fundamental
defining characteristic is sideways scrolling. Although you construct
a logically plausible interpretation as, "by extension any kind of
banner designed to attract attention. It is similar to a heading only
grander. " this isn't widely followed.

Take http://news.bbc.co.uk/ as an example

There area huge "BBC" and "News" banners that are comparable to a
couple of <h1>, but are used as branding rather than heading. You
might not even have noticed they were there any more, they're so
familiarly ignored.

The lead news story is highlighted with the next-largest heading on
the page, but this is only slightly bigger than the headings for other
stories. There's no strong "MAIN STORY" theme here, it's a newspaper
approach like the old Times and the group of stories is given broadly
similar precedence. The related magazine http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/default.stm
highlights its single main story slightly more heavily.

So there's a pretty serious site with a lot of effort and re-work gone
into it. Their overall banner is a worthless sacrifice to the fetishes
of brand-marketing, their changing headings are a fairly large number
of very similar weighting. There just isn't "one big headline" like a
Gotcha! or a Freddy Starr Ate My Hamster.

Now to the marquee. It does, as you suggest, try to grab attention.
However it's also scrolling through a number of equal-weight stories,
which frequently aren't the top-level main story. Its primary function
is to re-use screen space. Web pages don't need single eye catchers
to draw you to the page, you're already there. What they need is ways
to fit a quart into a pint pot, marquee does this by time-slicing
their screen area.

 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      05-11-2009
Ben C wrote:
> On 2009-05-11, Jonathan N. Little <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>> Marquee describes a particular "look" or style where the text ticks
>> across the screen.

>
> No it doesn't (any more than h1 describes a particular look or style
> involving a large or bold font).


It does with respect to MS when they made the element up.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...51(VS.85).aspx
marquee Object


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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Neredbojias
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      05-11-2009
On 11 May 2009, Ben C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On 2009-05-11, Jonathan N. Little <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2009-05-11, Adrienne Boswell <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben C <(E-Mail Removed)>
>>>> writing in news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>>
>>>>> On 2009-05-11, Andy Dingley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> * <marquee> is purely presentational markup, no describing the
>>>>>> structure of the content.
>>>>> How is it any more presentational than, say, <h1> or <p>?
>>>>>
>>>> H1 is a heading, P is a paragraph, they are structural elements.
>>>>
>>>> Marquee, like B, I and U are purely presentational.
>>>
>>> But it's not like B, I or U. The word "marquee" does not describe
>>> anything to do with text presentation. It means a tent, but also
>>> the awning or canopy in front of a hotel, and by extension any kind
>>> of banner designed to attract attention. It is similar to a heading
>>> only grander.

>>
>> No, <h1> & <p> as Adrienne states have a particular function, H1 is
>> a heading, P is a paragraph they may have different styling but
>> their function to the document remains the same.
>>
>> Marquee describes a particular "look" or style where the text ticks
>> across the screen.

>
> No it doesn't (any more than h1 describes a particular look or style
> involving a large or bold font).
>
>> It may be a heading, but it may not. A marquee will not be a marquee
>> if in its appearance is does not tick across like a marquee.

>
> Why couldn't it be surrounded by animated fireworks, for example, or
> indicated by moving Monty-Python-style cartoon fingers?


If you consider "marquee" similar to "banner" or "logo", there _is_ a
structural aspect to it although not the "classical" type such as "p",
"ul", etc. But this brings up the point wherein there can be (and
often is) a commingling between so-called structure and presentational
devices. As recently suggested, a heading is a heading is a heading,
but what heading is not somehow emphasized (even if only by segregated
placement) to indicate its status? To me, the current fad stressing
"layout" vs. "presentation" is really a bit on the ludicrous side
because correct implimentation of overall page markup does not rely on
one or the other alone. Some would say a style-less page is "correct"
if the "structural" html is valid, well-formed, and so forth, but is
it? The answer is no, not really, and presentation itself is
structural in a certain sense.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.org/
http://www.neredbojias.net/
 
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Neredbojias
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-11-2009
On 11 May 2009, Jim Moe <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On 05/10/09 09:37 am, Marc Bradshaw wrote:
>> A client has asked for, effectively, a <marquee> at the top of each
>> page to draw attention to promotion of his latest offers.
>>

> Personally I hate marquees. If I cannot hide or disable it, I move
> on to
> another site. The same for blinking GIFs or other image types. And
> Flash.
> I have noticed a number of sites implement a marquee of some sort;
> news
> sites seem to do this regularly. In every case so far, the marquee
> has disappeared within three months. The implication is that marquess
> are hugely unpopular.


Agreed, but should they be banned from (valid) html (or css) like
"target" was? Personally, I think the banning of "target" from
non-frames environments was one of the biggest of the w3c's many
mistakes.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.org/
http://www.neredbojias.net/
 
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dorayme
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      05-11-2009
In article <gu9gb0$q2g$(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> A marquee will
> not be a marquee if in its appearance is does not tick across like a
> marquee. In contrast a heading will still be a heading even if it does
> not have the default "look" of being bolder, bigger, and with and
> vertical margin...


At least this argument is no good. Is a heading that does not look like
a heading, sound like a heading, feel like a heading or smell like one,
still nevertheless a heading? I don't think so!

What is usefully to be described as presentational and what is not
depends on how deep browsers implement cross medium representation.
Meaning that if a blind man hears nothing at all or just "New York has
just been blown up by North Korea" in an ordinary voice used for body
sentences from a marquee marked up bit of text, it is fair to describe
it as having no or little of anything semantic cross medium, a limited
limitation.

However, if browsers expressed marquee text in a sort of circus master
of ceremonies voice, louder than the loudest H1, or even equally
annoyingly repeatedly, - "...Hilary admits to not really forgiving
Bill...Hilary admits to not really forgiving Bill...Hilary admits to not
really forgiving Bill" - then there is some sort of justice to what Ben
has said.

--
dorayme
 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      05-11-2009
dorayme wrote:
> In article <gu9gb0$q2g$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> "Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> A marquee will
>> not be a marquee if in its appearance is does not tick across like a
>> marquee. In contrast a heading will still be a heading even if it does
>> not have the default "look" of being bolder, bigger, and with and
>> vertical margin...

>
> At least this argument is no good. Is a heading that does not look like
> a heading, sound like a heading, feel like a heading or smell like one,
> still nevertheless a heading? I don't think so!


Sure. How you your define a heading? Here we have plain text:

Widgets

What will follow is an extended description about widgets....


Doodads

Also an extended amount of text describing what a doodad is. I can be
quite lengthy comprising many sentences....

Am I really a marquee now in plain text?

"Widgets" and "Doodads" can clearly serve as headings in plain text with
no definitive styling. They are structured as headings. Can you say the
same for the marquee line? And I am defining "marquee" in the manor the
creator, Microsoft, defines the marquee element.



--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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cwdjrxyz
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-11-2009
On May 11, 4:37*pm, dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> In article <gu9gb0$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> *"Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > A marquee will
> > not be a marquee if in its appearance is does not tick across like a
> > marquee. In contrast a heading will still be a heading even if it does
> > not have the default "look" of being bolder, bigger, and with and
> > vertical margin...

>
> At least this argument is no good. Is a heading that does not look like
> a heading, sound like a heading, feel like a heading or smell like one,
> still nevertheless a heading? I don't think so!
>
> What is usefully to be described as presentational and what is not
> depends on how deep browsers implement cross medium representation.
> Meaning that if a blind man hears nothing at all or just "New York has
> just been blown up by North Korea" in an ordinary voice used for body
> sentences from a marquee marked up bit of text, it is fair to describe
> it as having no or little of anything semantic cross medium, a limited
> limitation.
>
> However, if browsers expressed marquee text in a sort of circus master
> of ceremonies voice, louder than the loudest H1, or even equally
> annoyingly repeatedly, - "...Hilary admits to not really forgiving
> Bill...Hilary admits to not really forgiving Bill...Hilary admits to not
> really forgiving Bill" - then there is some sort of justice to what Ben
> has said.


I go to my bank web site quite often to check my balance, etc. I
seldom bother to read anything else, since it seldom changes. The site
is a rather proper plain design. However very rarely a huge marquee in
large red letters scrolls across the page. This does get one's notice.
You might get such a marquee concerning some problem with the site
that people need to know about at once. Of course you could get
attention to a message by using a temporary page to go to when you
sign in with an auto redirect to the usual page after some selected
time or when the user clicks a button. Or you could use bright
flashing text, etc. to get attention.The important point is that the
marquee or other device used be out of character with the page and
nearly impossible to avoid. On the other hand, if one has page that is
usually filled with marquees, flashing text, elaborate moving flash
ads, etc., a special notice marquee might easily go unnoticed by
repeat users of the page. In that case you might have to go to extreme
means to attract attention to a very important special message such as
by using a script "marquee" that allows images as well as text and
using scrolling nudes as well as text . A siren recording added
also might help .
 
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dorayme
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      05-11-2009
In article <gua9au$jp0$(E-Mail Removed)>,
"Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <gu9gb0$q2g$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > "Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> A marquee will
> >> not be a marquee if in its appearance is does not tick across like a
> >> marquee. In contrast a heading will still be a heading even if it does
> >> not have the default "look" of being bolder, bigger, and with and
> >> vertical margin...

> >
> > At least this argument is no good. Is a heading that does not look like
> > a heading, sound like a heading, feel like a heading or smell like one,
> > still nevertheless a heading? I don't think so!

>
> Sure. How you your define a heading? Here we have plain text:
>
> Widgets
>
> What will follow is an extended description about widgets....
>
>

Notice how your single line "Widgets" is on a single line, on its own.
That is *not* what I call 'not looking or smelling or sounding like a
heading'.

--
dorayme
 
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