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developing next windows versions

 
 
gustavo souza
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009
What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the next
versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For example, to
improve windows, one should know the current source code. But if you're not
an employee, that's illegal, according to those laws. The first day somebody
works at microsoft, what does the company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3
years 'til the guy studies the code, and only after that, starts programming?
I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not. What
training, books, courses, certifications should one get? Thank you.

 
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TBone
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      04-09-2009
And on the eigth day <gustavo http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)> did cause
the electrons to come together and form the following words:

> What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the next
> versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For
> example, to improve windows, one should know the current source code.
> But if you're not an employee, that's illegal, according to those
> laws. The first day somebody works at microsoft, what does the
> company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3 years 'til the guy studies
> the code, and only after that, starts programming?
> I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not. What
> training, books, courses, certifications should one get? Thank you.


You would require training and experience in programming and most likely
a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for OS level
programming, a computer science degree might be your best choice.

As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge teams
of people developing windows. Each team works on different parts. So the
work an individual gets is just a module that is part of the greater
whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For example, a firend of mine
worked for MS on his co-op term and he wrote what became the media
player for windows95. He never saw any other part of the code.

So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental understanding of
how large software applications are developed.

-------

T-Bone
MCNGP XL
 
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gustavo souza
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009
Thanks for saying that, but it only answers part of the question. I'm almost
graduating in computer science and I know about OO programming and
documentation. If someone's writing just an application for the OS, like
windows media player, all they should know is what kind of interface and
WIN32 API, for it to work on the OS.

But what if someone wants to IMPROVE the OS itself, like making it lighter
and faster? Millions of lines of code would have to be altered, so would the
core in assembly and C level. Somebody needs to have access to a lot of the
core code, and not just a small thing they're making, like "minesweeper for
the internet". Back compatibility with everything has to exist. Making the
next version of Directx means putting even better physics and linear algebra
functions in it. Besides it needs to be compatible with the new OS core.
How can I get a job like that? Knowing the core of windows to make it better.

About the certification, I'm studying for the MCSE. Is that good enough to
get a job improving the existing code?

I know it's tough to answer this, but even if you don't know, pass it on. I
called microsoft but they were not specific enough. Just asked me to look at
the careers website. I've done that. I'm gonna keep asking this to the
entire world 'til I find an answer. Thanks.


"TBone" wrote:

> And on the eigth day <gustavo (E-Mail Removed)> did cause
> the electrons to come together and form the following words:
>
> > What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the next
> > versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For
> > example, to improve windows, one should know the current source code.
> > But if you're not an employee, that's illegal, according to those
> > laws. The first day somebody works at microsoft, what does the
> > company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3 years 'til the guy studies
> > the code, and only after that, starts programming?
> > I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not. What
> > training, books, courses, certifications should one get? Thank you.

>
> You would require training and experience in programming and most likely
> a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for OS level
> programming, a computer science degree might be your best choice.
>
> As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge teams
> of people developing windows. Each team works on different parts. So the
> work an individual gets is just a module that is part of the greater
> whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For example, a firend of mine
> worked for MS on his co-op term and he wrote what became the media
> player for windows95. He never saw any other part of the code.
>
> So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
> entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
> programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental understanding of
> how large software applications are developed.
>
> -------
>
> T-Bone
> MCNGP XL
>

 
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FrisbeeŽ
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009
See what happens when you try to enlighten an idiot, T-Bone?

gustavo souza wrote:
> Thanks for saying that, but it only answers part of the question.
> I'm almost graduating in computer science and I know about OO
> programming and documentation. If someone's writing just an
> application for the OS, like windows media player, all they should
> know is what kind of interface and WIN32 API, for it to work on the
> OS.
>
> But what if someone wants to IMPROVE the OS itself, like making it
> lighter and faster? Millions of lines of code would have to be
> altered, so would the core in assembly and C level. Somebody needs
> to have access to a lot of the core code, and not just a small thing
> they're making, like "minesweeper for the internet". Back
> compatibility with everything has to exist. Making the next version
> of Directx means putting even better physics and linear algebra
> functions in it. Besides it needs to be compatible with the new OS
> core.
> How can I get a job like that? Knowing the core of windows to make
> it better.
>
> About the certification, I'm studying for the MCSE. Is that good
> enough to get a job improving the existing code?
>
> I know it's tough to answer this, but even if you don't know, pass it
> on. I called microsoft but they were not specific enough. Just
> asked me to look at the careers website. I've done that. I'm gonna
> keep asking this to the entire world 'til I find an answer. Thanks.
>
>
> "TBone" wrote:
>
>> And on the eigth day <gustavo (E-Mail Removed)> did
>> cause the electrons to come together and form the following words:
>>
>>> What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the
>>> next versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For
>>> example, to improve windows, one should know the current source
>>> code. But if you're not an employee, that's illegal, according to
>>> those laws. The first day somebody works at microsoft, what does
>>> the company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3 years 'til the guy
>>> studies the code, and only after that, starts programming?
>>> I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not.
>>> What training, books, courses, certifications should one get?
>>> Thank you.

>>
>> You would require training and experience in programming and most
>> likely a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for
>> OS level programming, a computer science degree might be your best
>> choice.
>>
>> As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge
>> teams of people developing windows. Each team works on different
>> parts. So the work an individual gets is just a module that is part
>> of the greater whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For
>> example, a firend of mine worked for MS on his co-op term and he
>> wrote what became the media player for windows95. He never saw any
>> other part of the code.
>>
>> So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
>> entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
>> programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental
>> understanding of how large software applications are developed.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> T-Bone
>> MCNGP XL



 
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gustavo souza
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009
To be more specific about what I want, here are two examples: improving the
existing source codes of windows processor scheduler, and the monitor to
guarantee better mutual exclusion, between processes and resources for the
new processors that are coming.

Not just make an application like windows media player, internet explorer,
or notepad. To do that, not only deep understanding in operating systems is
required, but unlimited access to the core code. The problem is with the
"ones" at microsoft that are not cooperating with their vague answers.

By the way, I'm already making a graphical operating system. Thanks.


"TBone" wrote:

> And on the eigth day <gustavo (E-Mail Removed)> did cause
> the electrons to come together and form the following words:
>
> > What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the next
> > versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For
> > example, to improve windows, one should know the current source code.
> > But if you're not an employee, that's illegal, according to those
> > laws. The first day somebody works at microsoft, what does the
> > company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3 years 'til the guy studies
> > the code, and only after that, starts programming?
> > I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not. What
> > training, books, courses, certifications should one get? Thank you.

>
> You would require training and experience in programming and most likely
> a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for OS level
> programming, a computer science degree might be your best choice.
>
> As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge teams
> of people developing windows. Each team works on different parts. So the
> work an individual gets is just a module that is part of the greater
> whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For example, a firend of mine
> worked for MS on his co-op term and he wrote what became the media
> player for windows95. He never saw any other part of the code.
>
> So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
> entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
> programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental understanding of
> how large software applications are developed.
>
> -------
>
> T-Bone
> MCNGP XL
>

 
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James
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009

> "TBone" wrote:
>
>> And on the eigth day <gustavo (E-Mail Removed)> did cause
>> the electrons to come together and form the following words:
>>
>>> What kind of training should one get to have a job developing the next
>>> versions of windows itself, NOT applications for windows? For
>>> example, to improve windows, one should know the current source code.
>>> But if you're not an employee, that's illegal, according to those
>>> laws. The first day somebody works at microsoft, what does the
>>> company do? Pay each programmer for 2 to 3 years 'til the guy studies
>>> the code, and only after that, starts programming?
>>> I'm asking something specific because "knowledge of OS" is not. What
>>> training, books, courses, certifications should one get? Thank you.

>> You would require training and experience in programming and most likely
>> a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for OS level
>> programming, a computer science degree might be your best choice.
>>
>> As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge teams
>> of people developing windows. Each team works on different parts. So the
>> work an individual gets is just a module that is part of the greater
>> whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For example, a firend of mine
>> worked for MS on his co-op term and he wrote what became the media
>> player for windows95. He never saw any other part of the code.
>>
>> So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
>> entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
>> programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental understanding of
>> how large software applications are developed.
>>
>> -------
>>
>> T-Bone
>> MCNGP XL
>>

gustavo souza wrote:
> To be more specific about what I want, here are two examples:

improving the
> existing source codes of windows processor scheduler, and the monitor to
> guarantee better mutual exclusion, between processes and resources

for the
> new processors that are coming.
>
> Not just make an application like windows media player, internet

explorer,
> or notepad. To do that, not only deep understanding in operating

systems is
> required, but unlimited access to the core code. The problem is with

the
> "ones" at microsoft that are not cooperating with their vague answers.
>
> By the way, I'm already making a graphical operating system. Thanks.



Put an NDA on a sticky note, and stick it to Ballmer's car. I'm sure
you'll get a copy of the source in the mail in no time flat.

JB
 
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PAJ
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-09-2009
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:22:01 -0700, gustavo souza
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>To be more specific about what I want, here are two examples: improving the
>existing source codes of windows processor scheduler, and the monitor to
>guarantee better mutual exclusion, between processes and resources for the
>new processors that are coming.


So there is not going to be a new minesweeper for the Internet?
If you change your mind please put me down as a beta tester.
Thanks awfully.
 
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Lawrence Garvin [MVP]
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      04-12-2009
"gustavo souza" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Thanks for saying that, but it only answers part of the question.


Okay... let me offer an alternative answer.

You want to work on programming a commercial operating system...

For starters you're going to need *YEARS* of experience programming. Period.

You want experience: Volunteer to do some open source work.

Build a portfolio of successful development projects.

Working on something as significant as a commercial operating system (e.g.
Windows), is less about education and a LOT about ability; and you'll need
to be able to prove that ability.

An undergrad college degree is a good start.

Now, put that education to work "paying your dues".

This statement here... no disrespect intended... demonstrates how shallow
your awareness of the actual requirements:

> If someone's writing just an application for the OS, like
> windows media player, all they should know is what kind of interface
> and
> WIN32 API, for it to work on the OS.


And, again, you also missed the point. Nobody works on the "whole system".
Each individual works on VERY SMALL PARTS of the whole system, and "making
an [OS] lighter and faster" is about making the individual components
"lighter and faster", and making anything "lighter and faster" comes with
EXPERIENCE.

As for certifications....

[1] Studying for the MCSE won't get you anywhere near a development job.
(Not being able to recognize the correct certifications for a development
career speaks volumes about your readiness for a job as a systems
developer.)

[2] Certifications require knowledge and experience in APPLICATIONS
programming -- see experience recommendation above.

However, to that point, it would be my expectation that having an MCPD will
go a long way toward getting you into the interview room at Microsoft. Not
having the cert, will almost certainly keep you out.


--
Lawrence Garvin, M.S., MCITP:EA, MCDBA
Principal/CTO, Onsite Technology Solutions, Houston, Texas
Microsoft MVP - Software Distribution (2005-2009)

MS WSUS Website: http://www.microsoft.com/wsus
My Websites: http://www.onsitechsolutions.com;
http://wsusinfo.onsitechsolutions.com
My MVP Profile: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/pro...awrence.Garvin

 
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Rob Wolfe
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Posts: n/a
 
      04-19-2009
== Quote from TBone (reply2me@thenewsgroup)'s article

> You would require training and experience in programming and most likely
> a development certification like MCSD. Having said that, for OS level
> programming, a computer science degree might be your best choice.


I would have to agree here. However, a light mix of real-world experience blended
slowly in with a pinch of that degree would work better *smiles*.

> As for your question about knowing the source code. There are huge teams
> of people developing windows. Each team works on different parts. So the
> work an individual gets is just a module that is part of the greater
> whole. Like an API or a DLL or something. For example, a firend of mine
> worked for MS on his co-op term and he wrote what became the media
> player for windows95. He never saw any other part of the code.


Now this is a cool tidbit I am in a similar situation. I have a friend that
was a developer on the Internet Explorer 5 team. He, too, never saw very much, if
any, of the entire Windows code (granted, seeing the ENTIRE slew of code that
makes up Windows as a whole I think would be interesting.

> So unless you plan on being the next Linus Torvalds and writing an
> entire operating system yourself, before you consider any type of
> programming job, you'll need to work on the fundamental understanding of
> how large software applications are developed.


Being a Linux fanatic myself (the news server I am posting this on is run in my
home using Linux) I have to say that even Linux as a whole isn't developed by
Linus alone -- there are tons of other contributors to the code that Linux implements.
 
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