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Python Goes Mercurial

 
 
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      04-05-2009
In message <262497db-d2fd-4217-978c-
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)>, Michele Simionato wrote:

> If Martin - which is well above the average programmer -
> says that he would need help with Git, I take this as
> meaning that most people would get lost with Git.


I don't feel lost with Git. Does that make me an above-average programmer?

> P.S. the thing I do not understand if why we are moving
> away from Subversion.


Because it's still centralized. That means different developers cannot pursue
parallel branches on their own, those branches must be represented on the
server.

 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      04-05-2009
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Jeroen
Ruigrok van der Werven wrote:

> There's situations where a centralised system like SVN works and there's
> situations where a DVCS works better.


Most of the people using Subversion seem to be corporates with a
centralized, top-down-controlled policy for development.

Conway's Law in effect, I guess.

> Unfortunately there's a whole group of rabid, zealous proponents...


Tell you what, keep the ad-hominem bullshit out of this discussion, and I
agree to do the same. Deal?

 
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Michele Simionato
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      04-05-2009
On Apr 5, 8:50*am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> Michele wrote:
> > the thing I do not understand if why we are moving
> > away from Subversion.

>
> Because it's still centralized. That means different developers cannot pursue
> parallel branches on their own, those branches must be represented on the
> server.


Yes, but Python managed to work this way for nearly two
decades and I am not sure the change is really required.
Notice that I did use a DVCS in the past (Darcs) and
in principle I like DVCS better, but in practice there
are too many of them nowadays, and I would wait for
a few years to see if the situation stabilizes before
changing the old route. But this point is moot, of course,
since the BDFL has already spoken. I take the core
developers are happy with the choice.

The relevance for me is that at work we use Subversion,
but now that Python uses mercurial I am sure there will
be coworkers wanting to switch to Mercurial and I would
like to understand what are the tradeoffs involved.
 
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Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
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      04-05-2009
-On [20090405 09:35], Lawrence D'Oliveiro ((E-Mail Removed)_zealand) wrote:
>Most of the people using Subversion seem to be corporates with a
>centralized, top-down-controlled policy for development.


Not just corporations. An open source or other type of organisation might
just as well have requirements that mandate a different kind of policy.

>Tell you what, keep the ad-hominem bullshit out of this discussion, and I
>agree to do the same. Deal?


I guess I touched a nerve, so you must consider yourself one of those then.

Just for the record: I meant that there's always a group who actively push
one solution over all others without regard to what the current situation
demands. If you cannot step back and look at the whole without trying to
push your own things, there's nary a word other than rabid and zealous for
that type of behaviour.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフ*ック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
How are the mighty fallen...
 
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David Cournapeau
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      04-05-2009
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> -On [20090405 06:05], Michele Simionato ((E-Mail Removed)) wrote:
>>P.S. the thing I do not understand if why we are moving
>>away from Subversion. Will all the new features entered
>>in 1.5 and 1.6 Subversion is now not so bad as it used to
>>be and it has the advantage of being already there and
>>familiar to most people.

>
> I don't fully get the whole 'we MUST go DVCS!' meme going around the
> Internet either.


I think it is often poorly 'marketed', and not well explained. But as
someone whose first source control system which made sense was a DVCS,
I can assure you that svn feels clumsy, slow, inadequate and extremely
primitive. Most people justification for svn is based on the fact they
are used to the workflow. Using DVCS to mimic the svn workflow is an
error IMHO. What would have happened if people tried to mimic the
visual sourcesafe workflow, with locks and co, with svn ? To me,
defending svn against DVCS is like defending the lock-per-file
approach of visual sourcesafe and the likes. Believe or not, there are
some people who think this lock-based workflow is better.

A simplistic analogy: svn it to CVS what C++ is to C, but try selling
C++ to python developers

David
 
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Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven
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      04-05-2009
-On [20090405 11:15], Ben Finney ((E-Mail Removed)) wrote:
>If you can look at the process that was followed in this decision and
>see “push one solution over all others without regard to what the
>current situation demands” you're not looking very hard.


I did not argue the decision for the Python project to use a DVCS at all,
which was evident from my initial email.

I merely stated that I cannot understand why there's a meme and/or group of
people on the 'net that vehemently declare that everything less than a DVCS
sucks.

--
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
イェルーン ラウフ*ック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Wisdom is the difference between knowledge and experience...
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      04-05-2009
In message <5f1038cd-b2c7-420d-
(E-Mail Removed)>, Michele Simionato wrote:

> The relevance for me is that at work we use Subversion,
> but now that Python uses mercurial I am sure there will
> be coworkers wanting to switch to Mercurial and I would
> like to understand what are the tradeoffs involved.


Eric Raymond has a good survey of what the important issues that they
address and the differences between them
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/version-control/version-control.html>. I
would say that, basically, it's all about increasingly sophisticated ways of
handling merging.

 
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skip@pobox.com
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      04-05-2009

>> If Martin - which is well above the average programmer - says that he
>> would need help with Git, I take this as meaning that most people
>> would get lost with Git.


Lawrence> I don't feel lost with Git. Does that make me an above-average
Lawrence> programmer?

No, perhaps it just means git fits your brain better than it fits Martin's.
I have trouble understanding any of the DVCS tools, but I think it's mostly
because I'm overwhelmed by the seemingly infinite variety of workflows.

--
Skip Montanaro - (E-Mail Removed) - http://www.smontanaro.net/
"XML sucks, dictionaries rock" - Dave Beazley
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      04-18-2009
Python and Git should get along great.

<http://www.ulrikchristensen.dk/scripts/montypython/mrgit.html>

 
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