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Whole house surge suppressors

 
 
w_tom
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      07-07-2004
The GE model seen previously is only sold in Lowes and is called
THQLSURGE if I remember correctly. It costs more than the Intermatic
IG1240RC sold in Home Depot and is undersized. That means it still
will work, but will have a significantly shorter life expectancy.
There are a few 'whole house' or breaker box protectors that are
undersized and still cost more money. Square D also makes an
undersized one. But Square D also makes a properly sized and
effective model as well. Benchmark for a minimally acceptable 'whole
house' protector is about 1000 joules and 50,000 amps. Same could be
accomplished by installing two GE THQLSURGE - both making a less than
10 foot connection to earth ground.

Roy McCammon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> I picked up one at Home Depot. They only had GE, but I was in luck
> because my service entrance box was GE. I just kept it on hand and when
> I had an electrician out for another problem, I had him install it.
>
> I don't know if it works, but I've convinced my wife to stop buying
> the useless ones and I'm ahead on dollars.

 
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w_tom
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      07-07-2004
Appliances already have effective internal protection. With a
properly installed 'whole house' protector and the so critical earth
ground, then any induced potential inside the building will remain
well below what appliances are designed to withstand. A 'whole house'
protector may not be perfect. But with it, residual transients inside
a building should remain at below what appliances must withstand;
below those ratings of appliance internal protection.

Anything that can be effective adjacent to the appliance is already
inside that appliance. One of the early requirements for such
internal protection was the CBEMA. Even Intel specifications for
power supplies require sufficient internal protection. Internal
protection that assumes the 'whole house' protector exists and that
all incoming utilities are properly earthed to the single point earth
ground.

"Charles Perry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> Do you have surge suppressors that provide surge reference equalization?
> What that means is a surge suppressor with power and cable protection in the
> same box. Even if the grounds for both electric and cable service are
> grounded at the same point, it is still possible to end up with an induced
> potential between them at your television. The suppressor with both power
> and cable protection will clamp this potential at a safe level.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.

 
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Dave Holford
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      07-07-2004


Mark wrote:
>
> Reality check here....I don't care what surge protection you use, if
> lightning hits your stuff its fried.
>
> --
> Mark



So how do radio stations, radar sites on mountains, etc. which take
multiple hits manage to survive?

Dave
 
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Charles Perry
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      07-07-2004

"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Appliances already have effective internal protection. With a
> properly installed 'whole house' protector and the so critical earth
> ground, then any induced potential inside the building will remain
> well below what appliances are designed to withstand. A 'whole house'
> protector may not be perfect. But with it, residual transients inside
> a building should remain at below what appliances must withstand;
> below those ratings of appliance internal protection.
>
> Anything that can be effective adjacent to the appliance is already
> inside that appliance. One of the early requirements for such
> internal protection was the CBEMA. Even Intel specifications for
> power supplies require sufficient internal protection. Internal
> protection that assumes the 'whole house' protector exists and that
> all incoming utilities are properly earthed to the single point earth
> ground.
>


The problem is not with the power supply, it is with the communications
ports. Nine out of ten failed appliances that we examine have failures
associated with the communications ports. If you don't provide the proper
TVSS that ties the power and communications references together, then you
will damage equipment.

http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf

A very good paper that mentions this.

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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w_tom
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-08-2004
Yes communication ports are easily damaged where they are used beyond
what they were designed for. Two examples are RS-232 ports and
outside speakers to a stereo amp. However first one must ask where
was the incoming and outgoing path for that damage.

Does a surge enter on communication port, damage that port, then
stop? Of course not. First a complete circuit is established from
cloud to earth. After that circuit is conducting electricity through
everything in that circuit, only then does something fail. If that
circuit is incoming and outgoing via appliance - a condition where
1000+ volts means the 'whole house protector system was defective -
then the solution is not to supplement the protector. The solution is
to fix the 'whole house' protector and its so critically necessary
earth ground.

As noted previously, many communication ports, to communicate with
devices not adjacent to the computer, already have effective internal
protection. For example NIC (ethernet) port is typically good for in
excess of 1000 volts. That is effective protection that can be
overwhelmed if the necessary 'whole house' protector system is not
installed. Most critical component of that system? Single point
earth ground.

Do we fix the single point ground or do we install 'point of use'
protectors on every of well over 100 appliances inside the house?
Remember, GFCIs in kitchen and bathroom, furnace, electronic timer
switch, dishwasher, clock radio, portable phone, microwave, alarm
system - are but a few of the electronics that each need a $15 or $50
protector if the 'whole house' system is not properly installed.
Better and less expensive to fix the 'whole house' (secondary)
protection system.

Charles Perry cites a paper that is a 'must read' for anyone who
needs surge protection:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
Same authors make same point in an applicaton note for builders and
other structural contractors - again must read:
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/h...ontractors.htm

In the Cozy Cabin example, simple principles of single point earth
ground are violated. Damage was made possible by human failure. The
Rambling Residence suffers from a similar failure. For example,
outside speakers are incoming wires that did not first connect to
single point ground before leaving the building. Where did that
transient enter or leave? The authors suspect induced electromagnetic
transient. However those wires easily could have been connected to a
direct surge by being buried, routed over conductive materials such as
concrete, or even in contact with another conductor - the tree. But
again, wires entered the building without first making contact to the
single point earth ground system. A blantant violation.

Other suspects could have contributed to the problem. Electrical
controls for the sprinkler system also complicate the installation of
a single point ground. Where or how did another structure - the
exterior pool - connect to building? Were building and pools
interconnected at a single point or did they too create ground loops?
Both pool and building should have been connected as if each were a
separate structure. If not, then the building could have ground loop
problems - no single point earth ground existed.

Earthing is the primary solution to surge protection which is also
why new homes should have Ufer or halo grounds. Grounding installed
bfore the foundation is even constructed. Purpose is to make earth
beneath equipotential - make the single point ground more effective.
Plug-in or 'point of use' protectors do not adaquately compensate for
a defective earthing system. Furthermore those plug-in protectors are
typically undersized and grossly overpriced - on the order of tens of
times more expensive per protected appliance.

That is the point of that nist.gov paper and so many other
industry professionals. Protectors are not the protection. Earthing
- the thing often forgotten because it is out of sight - is the most
important aspect of surge protection.

And we are only discussing secondary protection. What is the
primary protection? Examples of failures in a building's primary
protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Again, the less expensive and essential solution is earthing even in
the primary protector system.


"Charles Perry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> The problem is not with the power supply, it is with the communications
> ports. Nine out of ten failed appliances that we examine have failures
> associated with the communications ports. If you don't provide the proper
> TVSS that ties the power and communications references together, then you
> will damage equipment.
>
> http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
>
> A very good paper that mentions this.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.

 
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-08-2004
Communication ports are easily damaged if ports are used beyond their
design criteria. Two examples are RS-232 port to interconnect
buildings and stereos driving outside speakers. However, first one
must ask where was the incoming and outgoing path for that damage.
Does a surge enter on communication port, damage that port, then stop?
Of course not. First a complete circuit is established from cloud to
earth. After that circuit is conducting electricity through
everything in that circuit, only then does something fail. If that
circuit is incoming and outgoing via appliance - a condition where
1000+ volts means the 'whole house protector system was defective -
then the solution is not to supplement the protector. The solution is
to fix the 'whole house' protector and its so critically necessary
earth ground.

As noted previously, many communication ports, to communicate with
devices not adjacent to the computer, already have effective internal
protection. For example NIC (ethernet) port is typically good for in
excess of 1000 volts. That is effective protection that can be
overwhelmed if the necessary 'whole house' protector system is not
installed. Most critical component of that system? Single point
earth ground.

Do we fix the single point ground or do we install 'point of use'
protectors on every of well over 100 appliances inside the house?
Remember, GFCIs in kitchen and bathroom, furnace, electronic timer
switch, dishwasher, clock radio, portable phone, microwave, alarm
system - are but a few of the electronics that each need a $15 or $50
protector if the 'whole house' system is not properly installed.
Better and less expensive to fix the 'whole house' (secondary)
protection system.

Charles Perry cites a paper that is a 'must read' for anyone who
needs surge protection:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
Same authors make same point in an applicaton note for builders and
other structural contractors - again must read:
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/h...ontractors.htm

In the Cozy Cabin example, simple principles of single point earth
ground are violated. Damage was made possible by human failure. The
Rambling Residence suffers from a similar failure. For example,
outside speakers are incoming wires that did not first connect to
single point ground before leaving the building. Where did that
transient enter or leave? The authors suspect induced electromagnetic
transient. However those wires easily could have been connected to a
direct surge by being buried, routed over conductive materials such as
concrete, or even in contact with another conductor - the tree. But
again, wires entered the building without first making contact to the
single point earth ground system. A blantant violation.

Other suspects could have contributed to the problem. Electrical
controls for the sprinkler system also complicate the installation of
a single point ground. Where or how did another structure - the
exterior pool - connect to building? Were building and pools
interconnected at a single point or did they too create ground loops?
Both pool and building should have been connected as if each were a
separate structure. If not, then the building could have ground loop
problems - no single point earth ground existed.

Earthing is the primary solution to surge protection which is also
why new homes should have Ufer or halo grounds. Grounding installed
bfore the foundation is even constructed. Purpose is to make earth
beneath equipotential - make the single point ground more effective.
Plug-in or 'point of use' protectors do not adaquately compensate for
a defective earthing system. Furthermore those plug-in protectors are
typically undersized and grossly overpriced - on the order of tens of
times more expensive per protected appliance.

That is the point of that nist.gov paper and so many other
industry professionals. Protectors are not the protection. Earthing
- the thing often forgotten because it is out of sight - is the most
important aspect of surge protection.

And we are only discussing secondary protection. What is the
primary protection? Examples of failures in a building's primary
protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Again, the less expensive and essential solution is earthing even in
the primary protector system.


"Charles Perry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> The problem is not with the power supply, it is with the communications
> ports. Nine out of ten failed appliances that we examine have failures
> associated with the communications ports. If you don't provide the proper
> TVSS that ties the power and communications references together, then you
> will damage equipment.
>
> http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
>
> A very good paper that mentions this.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.

 
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-08-2004
Communication ports are easily damaged if ports are used beyond their
design criteria. Two examples are RS-232 port to interconnect
buildings and stereos driving outside speakers. However, first one
must ask where was the incoming and outgoing path for that damage.
Does a surge enter on communication port, damage that port, then stop?
Of course not. First a complete circuit is established from cloud to
earth. After that circuit is conducting electricity through
everything in that circuit, only then does something fail. If that
circuit is incoming and outgoing via appliance - a condition where
1000+ volts means the 'whole house protector system was defective -
then the solution is not to supplement the protector. The solution is
to fix the 'whole house' protector and its so critically necessary
earth ground.

As noted previously, many communication ports, to communicate with
devices not adjacent to the computer, already have effective internal
protection. For example NIC (ethernet) port is typically good for in
excess of 1000 volts. That is effective protection that can be
overwhelmed if the necessary 'whole house' protector system is not
installed. Most critical component of that system? Single point
earth ground.

Do we fix the single point ground or do we install 'point of use'
protectors on every of well over 100 appliances inside the house?
Remember, GFCIs in kitchen and bathroom, furnace, electronic timer
switch, dishwasher, clock radio, portable phone, microwave, alarm
system - are but a few of the electronics that each need a $15 or $50
protector if the 'whole house' system is not properly installed.
Better and less expensive to fix the 'whole house' (secondary)
protection system.

Charles Perry cites a paper that is a 'must read' for anyone who
needs surge protection:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
Same authors make same point in an applicaton note for builders and
other structural contractors - again must read:
http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/h...ontractors.htm

In the Cozy Cabin example, simple principles of single point earth
ground are violated. Damage was made possible by human failure. The
Rambling Residence suffers from a similar failure. For example,
outside speakers are incoming wires that did not first connect to
single point ground before leaving the building. Where did that
transient enter or leave? The authors suspect induced electromagnetic
transient. However those wires easily could have been connected to a
direct surge by being buried, routed over conductive materials such as
concrete, or even in contact with another conductor - the tree. But
again, wires entered the building without first making contact to the
single point earth ground system. A blantant violation.

Other suspects could have contributed to the problem. Electrical
controls for the sprinkler system also complicate the installation of
a single point ground. Where or how did another structure - the
exterior pool - connect to building? Were building and pools
interconnected at a single point or did they too create ground loops?
Both pool and building should have been connected as if each were a
separate structure. If not, then the building could have ground loop
problems - no single point earth ground existed.

Earthing is the primary solution to surge protection which is also
why new homes should have Ufer or halo grounds. Grounding installed
bfore the foundation is even constructed. Purpose is to make earth
beneath equipotential - make the single point ground more effective.
Plug-in or 'point of use' protectors do not adaquately compensate for
a defective earthing system. Furthermore those plug-in protectors are
typically undersized and grossly overpriced - on the order of tens of
times more expensive per protected appliance.

That is the point of that nist.gov paper and so many other
industry professionals. Protectors are not the protection. Earthing
- the thing often forgotten because it is out of sight - is the most
important aspect of surge protection.

And we are only discussing secondary protection. What is the
primary protection? Examples of failures in a building's primary
protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Again, the less expensive and essential solution is earthing even in
the primary protector system.


"Charles Perry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> The problem is not with the power supply, it is with the communications
> ports. Nine out of ten failed appliances that we examine have failures
> associated with the communications ports. If you don't provide the proper
> TVSS that ties the power and communications references together, then you
> will damage equipment.
>
> http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf
>
> A very good paper that mentions this.
>
> Charles Perry P.E.

 
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Charles Perry
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-08-2004

"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Yes communication ports are easily damaged where they are used beyond
> what they were designed for. Two examples are RS-232 ports and
> outside speakers to a stereo amp. However first one must ask where
> was the incoming and outgoing path for that damage.


You missed part of the discussion of the paper I referenced. Even with
proper grounding, you can get a large induced voltage at the appliance.
Believe me. We have done the testing for NIST. A whole house surge
protector only protects for overvoltages on the power. It does NOT protect
for potential difference between power and communications. These potential
differences are the cause of many failures. Perhaps you should google a
NIST document called "Surges Happen".

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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w_tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-08-2004
Where is the major voltage difference between phone and AC electric if
both are properly earthed (a less than 10 foot connection) to same
earth ground? That is the point of that previously cited citation and
that application note for contractors. Not having all incoming
utilities earth 'less than 10 feet' to the single point earth ground
can cause voltage differences. If those voltage differences exist,
then the ineffective (improperly installed) 'whole house' systems with
single point earth ground is reason for failure. Notice how large
that failure must be to cause damage to many appliances. Voltage
differences of 600+ volts between phone line and AC electric just are
not possible if the 'whole house' earthing is properly installed.
That is even the point of your nist.gov citation. They cite bad
earthing in the Cozy Cabin and in the Rambling Residence. Bad
earthing resulted in that damage.

Anything added supplementary is up to the owner. But if the
original problem is not corrected, then (as I even demonstrated by
tracing the circuit and replacing blown semiconductors) the plug-in
protector can even contribute to damage of adjacent electronics.]

Solution is to fix the problem and not buy grossly overpriced cures
(plug-in protectors) to fix the original problem - the defective earth
ground and no 'whole house' protector.

I do appreciate what you recommend. I too once believed that stuff
originally in the 1970 GE Application Note (more like a book) for
MOVs. Since then I have learned that Polyphaser.com provides more
accurate information. Solve the problem where the problem exists -
single point earth ground AND short connections either by hardware or
through the 'whole house' protector.

I am reminded of an example in FL. They had lightning strike an
exterior bathroom wall twice. They had lightning rods installed.
Lightning ignored the lightning rods to strike bathroom wall a third
time. Why? Because lightning rods only connected to eight foot
ground rods in sand. Bathroom plumbing connected to more conductive
and deeper earth. Lightning damage because the earth ground was not
properly installed. Earthing is where primary and secondary
protection exists. Anything else (including series mode protectors
such as Brickwall, Zerosurge, and Surgex) are only supplementary AFTER
the primary and secondary protection systems are installed or
repaired.

"Charles Perry" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>...
> "w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> > Yes communication ports are easily damaged where they are used beyond
> > what they were designed for. Two examples are RS-232 ports and
> > outside speakers to a stereo amp. However first one must ask where
> > was the incoming and outgoing path for that damage.

>
> You missed part of the discussion of the paper I referenced. Even with
> proper grounding, you can get a large induced voltage at the appliance.
> Believe me. We have done the testing for NIST. A whole house surge
> protector only protects for overvoltages on the power. It does NOT protect
> for potential difference between power and communications. These potential
> differences are the cause of many failures. Perhaps you should google a
> NIST document called "Surges Happen".
>
> Charles Perry P.E.

 
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Charles Perry
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-09-2004

"w_tom" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Where is the major voltage difference between phone and AC electric if
> both are properly earthed (a less than 10 foot connection) to same
> earth ground? That is the point of that previously cited citation and
> that application note for contractors. Not having all incoming
> utilities earth 'less than 10 feet' to the single point earth ground
> can cause voltage differences.


How long do you think the typical telephone run is in a house? And the
average length of a power circuit? Basically you end up with two huge
antennas. Think about it. Even if they are connected on one end, that does
not guarantee zero potential between them at the other end, particularly for
transient events such as lightning.

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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