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Whole house surge suppressors

 
 
jk
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2004
Flea Ridden <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>So when I call an arbitrary electrician to ask for a grounding survey,
>how do I know he's telling me the truth?
>


How do you know any one is?
But what you want is not an electrician.
You want an electrical testing company.


>Do I have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to purchase a ground
>tester?


Thats a big range, but no. You could make one.



>This is for a single family home that I have lived in for about 7 years,
>and will probably continue to live in for about 7 more years.



>
>Since I'm having electrical work done, I would also like something like
>this: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3108400 installed
>at my breaker box; it would be nice if it could break down it's info by
>each breaker; and it would also be nice if it could tell me how much
>current is flowing through my ground connection


I think we still have some equipment that could do that for you, but I
doubt you want to pay for it or for the software system to run it.






jk
 
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w_tom
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      07-06-2004
And again we have this misconception that a 'service entrance' and a
'point of use' protectors are protection. Again, protectors and
protection are two different components in a protection 'system'.
Again, protection is that single point earth ground. Protectors are
only electrical switches or connections to that single point ground.
A protector without that single point earth ground is doing nothing
effective.

The CATV line is as easy to protect as all other incoming utility
wires. It must first make a connection to single point earth ground -
the protection - before entering the building. Newly revitalized
cable companies are now teaching their employees this 60+ year old
technology. Technology that long understood and that repeatedly
proven. And yet still, here in the 21st Century, we still have people
'assuming' a protector is protection. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground. How does the incoming cable get
protected? Throw away the protector and connect that incoming cable
direct - hardwired - to single point earth ground. No earth ground
means no effective protection.

Why might the TV be damaged on its cable connection? If cable was
properly earthed, then incoming transient is on some other utility.
One typical incoming source is the AC electric (especially if
appliance is connected to an adjacent plug-in protector). Incoming on
AC electric, through TV, and outgoing to earth ground via cable.
First everything in an electrical path from cloud to ground conducts
the transient. Only then does one device in that path fail - often a
component on TV's cable connection. Many then assume the surge came
in on cable when, in reality, surge was incoming on AC electric and
outgoing on cable connection.


http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Bob S.) wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed). com>...
> I have 2 point protection - service and point of use. I have had 2
> lightning strikes in the past few years and have had no power related
> damage. However, both times it wiped out my tv's by coming in the
> cable tv line. Last week it got 3 tv's ($2500 loss). Sure wish there
> was a better way of protecting the cable.

 
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Charles Perry
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      07-06-2004
<snip>
> (E-Mail Removed) (Bob S.) wrote in message

news:<(E-Mail Removed). com>...
> > I have 2 point protection - service and point of use. I have had 2
> > lightning strikes in the past few years and have had no power related
> > damage. However, both times it wiped out my tv's by coming in the
> > cable tv line. Last week it got 3 tv's ($2500 loss). Sure wish there
> > was a better way of protecting the cable.


Do you have surge suppressors that provide surge reference equalization?
What that means is a surge suppressor with power and cable protection in the
same box. Even if the grounds for both electric and cable service are
grounded at the same point, it is still possible to end up with an induced
potential between them at your television. The suppressor with both power
and cable protection will clamp this potential at a safe level.

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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SQLit
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      07-06-2004

"Michael" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:cYiGc.2885$(E-Mail Removed) nk.net...
>
> > IEEE has standards for surge protection, they come in 3 categories.
> > Distribution, service and point of use. You need 2 out of 3 to have

decent
> > protection. Since distribution is handled by the serving utility we now

have
> > two to work with.
> > There are 2 basic types of surge protection devices, MOV's and the rest.
> > MOV's are tested once. So they will do their job once, a second hit,,,

who
> > knows.

>
> Can you chain MOV's to defeat second spikes?


That is basicly what the zones of protection do. The first takes it down as
much as it can then the next does its job and hopefully that takes it to a
level that the point of use can handle.

> If you have this much time and money, why not put a lightning rod on the
> roof?

Rods on the roof only help protect the building. My thrust is to protect my
sensitive electronics. Not the structure.

> Michael



 
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chris
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      07-06-2004
Hi

If the structure gets hit by lightning and catches fire, Electronics are the
least of your worries.

Chris

"SQLit" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:zuyGc.10767$nc.8902@fed1read03...
>
> "Michael" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:cYiGc.2885$(E-Mail Removed) nk.net...
> >
> > > IEEE has standards for surge protection, they come in 3 categories.
> > > Distribution, service and point of use. You need 2 out of 3 to have

> decent
> > > protection. Since distribution is handled by the serving utility we

now
> have
> > > two to work with.
> > > There are 2 basic types of surge protection devices, MOV's and the

rest.
> > > MOV's are tested once. So they will do their job once, a second hit,,,

> who
> > > knows.

> >
> > Can you chain MOV's to defeat second spikes?

>
> That is basicly what the zones of protection do. The first takes it down

as
> much as it can then the next does its job and hopefully that takes it to a
> level that the point of use can handle.
>
> > If you have this much time and money, why not put a lightning rod on the
> > roof?

> Rods on the roof only help protect the building. My thrust is to protect

my
> sensitive electronics. Not the structure.
>
> > Michael

>
>



 
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A
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2004
More interesting for A+ students is which class of fire extinguisher is used
specifically on electrics. I got this question a few weeks ago in the Core
exam. I've also had two friends over the years who have had direct hits by
lightening. The damage is incredible! Alan.
"Flea Ridden" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> This is a most informative article, and it echoes what w_tom says:
> http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_hit_grounding_home/
>
> So when I call an arbitrary electrician to ask for a grounding survey,
> how do I know he's telling me the truth?
>
> Do I have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to purchase a ground
> tester?
>
> This is for a single family home that I have lived in for about 7 years,
> and will probably continue to live in for about 7 more years.
>
>
> Since I'm having electrical work done, I would also like something like
> this: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3108400 installed
> at my breaker box; it would be nice if it could break down it's info by
> each breaker; and it would also be nice if it could tell me how much
> current is flowing through my ground connection.
>
>
> Here are random URLs of info:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...m0%25404ax.com
>
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...as_maxy%3D2003
>
> http://amasci.com/amateur/whygnd.html
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...t%26ie%3DUTF-8
%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
>
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...oogle%2BSearch
>
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...oogle%2BSearch
>
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...%3D10%26sa%3DN
>
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...%3D20%26sa%3DN
>
>
>
>
> Here is a summary of models I have found, and some anecdotes from
> Usenet:
>
> MODEL: Panamax Primax
> RESELLER: SmartHome.com http://www.smarthome.com/4839.html
> JOULES: 2700
> AMPS: 60,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 1 Phase, 50/60 Hz
> RESPONSE TIME: 8x20 microseconds
> PRICE: $119.99
> WARRANTY: the manufacturer provides a 3-year Connected Major Appliance
> Protection Policy up to $10,000 for the repair or replacement of major
> household appliances (refrigerator, freezer, oven, range, washer, dryer,
> ceiling fan or dishwasher) and a 5-year product warranty.
> URLS:
> - Press Release:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pa...omputer&rnum=3
>
> - Negative Experiences:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pa...eja.com&rnum=4
>
> - More Negative Experiences:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...6btnG%3DSearch
>
> MODEL: Leviton 51120-1
> RESELLER: SmartHome.com http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
> JOULES: 950
> AMPS: 50,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE:
> RESPONSE TIME: "Instantaneous"
> PRICE: $189.99
> WARRANTY:
> URLS:
> - Positive Comment:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...com%26rnum%3D4
>
> - Negative Comment:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=le...ail.com&rnum=3
>
> - Positive Comment:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=51...ibm.net&rnum=2
>
> MODEL: Panamax gpp8005
> RESELLER: PowerSystemsDIRECT
>

http://www.powersystemsdirect.com/Pa...gpp8005_55.php
>
> JOULES: 2,700
> AMPS: 60,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 1 Phase 50/60Hz
> RESPONSE TIME:
> PRICE: $99.99
> WARRANTY: Connected Equipment Policy Length 3 Years; Connected
> Equipment Policy Amount $10,000; Lightning Protection Yes
> URLS:
> Model description:
>
> MODEL: Intermatic IG1240RC
> RESELLER: SmartHomeUSA.com
> http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/Lig...Item/IG1240RC/
>
> JOULES: 1,200
> AMPS: 48,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240V 60Hz
> RESPONSE TIME: Less than 5 nanoseconds
> PRICE: $69.95
> WARRANTY: $10,000 warrantee
> URLS:
> - Positive:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...com%26rnum%3D2
>
> - Positive:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...6btnG%3DSearch
>
> - Positive:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=in...nni.com&rnum=3
>
> - Informational:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=in...ill.edu&rnum=2
>
> MODEL: Intermatic PanelGuard IG1300-4T-2C, protects (?) phone-lines and
> cable lines too
> RESELLER:
> JOULES:
> AMPS: 48,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120/240 single (split) phase, 4 telephone lines, and 2
> coax cable lines; ALL MODE PROTECTION (L1-N, L2-N, L1-G, L2-G, N-G,
> L1-L2); 150 Volt MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) [AC Protection]; 350 Volt
> Gas Tube [Telephone Protection]; 90 Volt Gas Tube [Coax Cable /
> Satellite Protection]
> RESPONSE TIME:
> PRICE: IG1300-2T is $152.83 at
> http://www.aplussupply.com/intermatic/pg5000/ig1240.htm
> WARRANTY: $10,000, 5 year warranty
> URLS:
> - Non-negative:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...oogle%2BSearch
>
> - Positive:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...oogle%2BSearch
>
> MODEL: Ditek DTK-WH8 Whole House Kit
> RESELLER: StayOnline
> http://www.stayonline.com/panel_surg...ctors/3233.asp
> JOULES: 1050
> AMPS: 125,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120 / 240 Split Phase ; Suppressed Voltage Rating: 700V
> (L-L), 400V (L-G, L-N, N-G)
> RESPONSE TIME: Less than 5 nanosecond
> PRICE: $149
> WARRANTY:
> URLS:
>
> MODEL: PolyPhaser IS-PM120-SP
> RESELLER: PolyPhaser.com
> JOULES:
> AMPS: 40,000
> CIRCUIT TYPE: 120Vac, 1 Phase, 2 Wires & GND
> RESPONSE TIME: ?? Turn-On Time: 25ns ??
> PRICE:
> WARRANTY:
> URLS:
> - Positive:
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=le...ail.com&rnum=3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



 
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John Popelish
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2004
SQLit wrote:
(snip)
> Rods on the roof only help protect the building. My thrust is to protect my
> sensitive electronics. Not the structure.


Would you rather a hit follow the wiring running through the structure
(and jump through whatever was in the way as it hops between various
conductors and objects) as it finds its way to ground, or would you
rather that this current be directed through an intentional path?

I know which I would choose.

--
John Popelish
 
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Charles Perry
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      07-06-2004

"Roy McCammon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> I picked up one at Home Depot. They only had GE, but I was in luck
> because my service entrance box was GE. I just kept it on hand and when
> I had an electrician out for another problem, I had him install it.
>
> I don't know if it works, but I've convinced my wife to stop buying
> the useless ones and I'm ahead on dollars.
>


What "useless ones"? If you do not have a separate TVSS at your appliance
(whether computer or television) that includes plugs for power and
communications (cable and/or telephone) then you will likely experience
damage to an appliance some day.

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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Rich Grise
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-07-2004
on Tuesday 06 July 2004 08:39 am, A wrote:

> More interesting for A+ students is which class of fire extinguisher is
> used specifically on electrics.


It's a trick question. You can use a C, an AC, a BC, or an ABC. An
electrical fire is a type "C" fire.

> I got this question a few weeks ago in the
> Core exam. I've also had two friends over the years who have had direct
> hits by lightening. The damage is incredible! Alan.


I was in an apartment that got hit once. Luckily, I had had the notion
to unplug the modem. The answering machine was a total loss, and
the TV had the weirdest malfunction I've ever seen - it wouldn't turn
off! I paid a tech $35 to diagnose it, and I replaced the transistor
myself. Down the hallway, at least one exit light had had the front
panel blown off, and the lamp was dangling by its wires. The manager
said there was about $7,000 worth of damage from the one strike.
--
Cheers!
Rich

 
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Charles Perry
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      07-07-2004

"Roy McCammon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
> Charles Perry wrote:
> > "Roy McCammon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> >>I picked up one at Home Depot. They only had GE, but I was in luck
> >>because my service entrance box was GE. I just kept it on hand and when
> >>I had an electrician out for another problem, I had him install it.
> >>
> >>I don't know if it works, but I've convinced my wife to stop buying
> >>the useless ones and I'm ahead on dollars.
> >>

> >
> >
> > What "useless ones"? If you do not have a separate TVSS at your

appliance
> > (whether computer or television) that includes plugs for power and
> > communications (cable and/or telephone) then you will likely experience
> > damage to an appliance some day.
> >
> > Charles Perry P.E.

>
> I don't believe separate TVSS provide any significant protection.
>
> Roy McCammon P.E.
>
>
>


We have tons of test data proving that it is necessary to provide a surge
equilization TVSS at any equipment that is powered from the electrical
system and connected to one, or more, communication systems.

Read this:

http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/817g/sp...lightening.pdf

Charles Perry P.E.


 
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