Engineering Certifications

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:25:15 -0400, "beekay"
<> wrote:

>Just curious - does a BA mean you are a bachelor? Or an artist? And can
>you be an unmarried portrait painter without a BA? Really, this is just for
>laughs, not an attack.
>
>bruce kimball from louisville

Hmmm...the Master's degree could have some interesting spins on it.


Here one can get a "Master's" in cosmetology, or at least once could.

Tom

>
>=========================================
>
>"Tom MacIntyre" <> wrote in message
>news:.. .
>> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:43:50 GMT, "AT" <torgny@@direcway.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Bernie" <> wrote in message
>> >news:.. .
>> >> Quick question. Do you mean real engineers, psuedo-engineers (who
>> >> arguably do perform *some* engineering tasks but are not certified by
>> >> state government as "engineers"), or the completely fake engineers who
>> >> make a joke out of the real term "engineer" by attaching it to people
>> >> who pass silly Prometric exams?
>> >>
>> >> --Bernie
>> >
>> >Engineer is a Job Title! Meaning if you have the job as an engineer then
>you
>> >are an engineer! On the other hand you can have an education as an
>engineer
>> >but not have a job as an engineer. In this case I would not consider you
>as
>> >an engineer. Complicated? Could be, but that's life!
>> >
>> >The original question is too wide to even try to answer.
>> >
>> >AT
>> >
>>
>> No, I don't think so. Once you get the title through a tough
>> educational circumstance, you have that title. I have a hard-earned
>> electronics engineering technology diploma on my wall, and worked for
>> many years in the field of electronics. I no longer work in that
>> field. I am still an electronics engineering technologist, in name,
>> because I earned the title through education and years in the field.
>> If the body who granted me the diploma put a time limit on it, then
>> that's fine, but they haven't. If an employer decides to base their
>> opinions on current employment, time frame, etc., that's fine too, but
>> they might get a surprise if they tested my knowledge base.
>>
>> I also have a BA in music, and no longer perform due to
>> medical/physical problems. I still believe my BA is valid, and I
>> suspect the university that granted my degree does also. Again, the
>> yada-yada-yada clause applies.
>>
>> Tom
>

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:56:07 -0400, "TechGeekPro"
<%username%@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Ticking Timebomb" <> wrote in message
>news:c9%vc.79611$ .com...
>>
>> "TechGeekPro" <%username%@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:tKydnTglsfIZ4V3dRVn-...
>> > "Ticking Timebomb" <> wrote in message
>> > news:ZT_vc.79609$%. com...


>> > > I work for a consulting company that calls us 'engineers' and I cringe
>> > > whenever they say it. I always correct them, even on a conference call
>> > with
>> > > a big client 'Ahem, excuse me, just for the record I am NOT an
>> engineer;
>> > I
>> > > am a tech'
>> > > When I was hired 5 years ago, I made a big stink about it in a
>meeting,
>> > but
>> > > management decided to keep calling us engineers anyway.
>> > > I refuse to hand out my cards because my co put 'engineer' on them. I
>> said
>> > > that is false reprasentation.
>> > >
>> > Agree with it or not, the "E" in MCSE *does* stand for Engineer.
>> >
>> Ya I know I am a stick in the mud, but just because MS is insulting a
>group
>> of professionals by cheapening the word, does not mean I will also.
>>
>>
>
>I don't particularly like it either. I prefer technician.
>

Cisco uses "Expert", right? That would/could be appropriate for the MS
certification also.

Tom

"Tom MacIntyre" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:56:07 -0400, "TechGeekPro"
> <%username%@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"Ticking Timebomb" <> wrote in message
> >news:c9%vc.79611$ .com...
> >>
> >> "TechGeekPro" <%username%@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:tKydnTglsfIZ4V3dRVn-...
> >> > "Ticking Timebomb" <> wrote in message
> >> > news:ZT_vc.79609$%. com...
>
>
> >> > > I work for a consulting company that calls us 'engineers' and I
cringe
> >> > > whenever they say it. I always correct them, even on a conference
call
> >> > with
> >> > > a big client 'Ahem, excuse me, just for the record I am NOT an
> >> engineer;
> >> > I
> >> > > am a tech'
> >> > > When I was hired 5 years ago, I made a big stink about it in a
> >meeting,
> >> > but
> >> > > management decided to keep calling us engineers anyway.
> >> > > I refuse to hand out my cards because my co put 'engineer' on them.
I
> >> said
> >> > > that is false reprasentation.
> >> > >
> >> > Agree with it or not, the "E" in MCSE *does* stand for Engineer.
> >> >
> >> Ya I know I am a stick in the mud, but just because MS is insulting a
> >group
> >> of professionals by cheapening the word, does not mean I will also.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I don't particularly like it either. I prefer technician.
> >
>
> Cisco uses "Expert", right? That would/could be appropriate for the MS
> certification also.
>
> Tom

It would if it didn't already stand for engineer. They really should change
it though.

Aren't housewives now "Domestic Engineers" ?

=============
"TechGeekPro" <%username%@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:...
> Just a thought: What about Sanitation Engineers?
>
> --
> I may not be completely certified, but I am completely certifiable.
>
> "Harsha Raghavan" <> wrote in message
> news: m...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm trying to understand the various certifications for engineers.
> > This does not include software engineering - there are a ton of
> > websites for that! What I'm not able to find out are the various
> > certifications for engineers. Can someone help me with either
> > information or websites? I'm looking to also learn the number of
> > engineers who're certified and who took what certification exams! All
> > that good stuff !! Thank you!
>
>

In article <c9%vc.79611$> ,
says...
> Ya I know I am a stick in the mud, but just because MS is insulting a group
> of professionals by cheapening the word, does not mean I will also.

Like how chiropractors call themselves Doctors?


--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
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In article <xMednQOpEaJadV3dRVn->, %username%@yahoo.com
says...
> It would if it didn't already stand for engineer. They really should change
> it though.

The E in CCIE stands for Expert.


--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
************************************************** ******************
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
************************************************** ******************

"Bernie" <> wrote in message
news...
> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:43:50 GMT, "AT" <torgny@@direcway.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bernie" <> wrote in message
> >news:.. .
> >> Quick question. Do you mean real engineers, psuedo-engineers (who
> >> arguably do perform *some* engineering tasks but are not certified by
> >> state government as "engineers"), or the completely fake engineers who
> >> make a joke out of the real term "engineer" by attaching it to people
> >> who pass silly Prometric exams?
> >>
> >> --Bernie
> >
> >Engineer is a Job Title! Meaning if you have the job as an engineer then
you
> >are an engineer!
>
> Correction. Today it is a job title and a professional degree which
> also has governmental controls (e.g. state board certification etc.).
> It used to only be the latter. The title engineer has been so
> cheapened by cheesy jobs and lame vendor certifications that adopted
> that title to grant an automatic (and cheaply bought I might add)
> elevation in status.
>
> So ten years from now when "engineer" no longer carries even the
> pitiful status it retains has today, are we going work the word
> "doctor" into our titles to get a further cheaply bought elevation?
> I'm a "network doctor" (not an MD).... scratch that, I'm a "senior
> network doctor." Oops now that everyone is calling themselves a
> senior network doctor, I am now a "level three senior network doctor."
>
> Maybe after that we will start calling ourselves scientists or lawyers
> etc.
>
> See how ridiculous that is? It is a slippery slope when you start
> cheapening titles that used to mean something.
>
> >On the other hand you can have an education as an engineer
> >but not have a job as an engineer. In this case I would not consider you
as
> >an engineer.
>
> But what does it matter what you consider someone if the state board
> considers someone a civil engineer, electrical engineer, etc?
>
> >Complicated? Could be, but that's life!
> >
> >The original question is too wide to even try to answer.
>
> Yes it is! That was partly my point.
>
> --Bernie

Oh, and the CCIE is a "cheesy" cert right? Those guys aren't real engineers,
right? Whats your CCIE number Bernie? It's so easy and cheesy to get, you
must have gotten one as they ARE valuable.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:20:59 -0700, "ec" <> wrote:

>
>"Bernie" <> wrote in message
>news.. .
>> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:43:50 GMT, "AT" <torgny@@direcway.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Bernie" <> wrote in message
>> >news:.. .
>> >> Quick question. Do you mean real engineers, psuedo-engineers (who
>> >> arguably do perform *some* engineering tasks but are not certified by
>> >> state government as "engineers"), or the completely fake engineers who
>> >> make a joke out of the real term "engineer" by attaching it to people
>> >> who pass silly Prometric exams?
>> >>
>> >> --Bernie
>> >
>> >Engineer is a Job Title! Meaning if you have the job as an engineer then
>you
>> >are an engineer!
>>
>> Correction. Today it is a job title and a professional degree which
>> also has governmental controls (e.g. state board certification etc.).
>> It used to only be the latter. The title engineer has been so
>> cheapened by cheesy jobs and lame vendor certifications that adopted
>> that title to grant an automatic (and cheaply bought I might add)
>> elevation in status.
>>
>> So ten years from now when "engineer" no longer carries even the
>> pitiful status it retains has today, are we going work the word
>> "doctor" into our titles to get a further cheaply bought elevation?
>> I'm a "network doctor" (not an MD).... scratch that, I'm a "senior
>> network doctor." Oops now that everyone is calling themselves a
>> senior network doctor, I am now a "level three senior network doctor."
>>
>> Maybe after that we will start calling ourselves scientists or lawyers
>> etc.
>>
>> See how ridiculous that is? It is a slippery slope when you start
>> cheapening titles that used to mean something.
>>
>> >On the other hand you can have an education as an engineer
>> >but not have a job as an engineer. In this case I would not consider you
>as
>> >an engineer.
>>
>> But what does it matter what you consider someone if the state board
>> considers someone a civil engineer, electrical engineer, etc?
>>
>> >Complicated? Could be, but that's life!
>> >
>> >The original question is too wide to even try to answer.
>>
>> Yes it is! That was partly my point.
>>
>> --Bernie
>
>Oh, and the CCIE is a "cheesy" cert right?

E stands for Expert in case you weren't aware, lol.

>Those guys aren't real engineers,

No they aren't. I'll leave it to you to try to make the case that
they are.

>right? Whats your CCIE number Bernie? It's so easy and cheesy to get, you
>must have gotten one as they ARE valuable.

See above.

--Bernie

In article <v8Kwc.50987$oi5.9682@fed1read07>, says...
> Oh, and the CCIE is a "cheesy" cert right? Those guys aren't real engineers,
> right?

No they are not. I'm a CCIE and I have an engineering background. I
took the EIT but never pursued the PE route. EIT is the first pre-req
to becoming a PE. You learn far more fundamental topics in college that
a lot of CCIEs never even dream about let alone know. Having said that,
I can't remember the last time I had to draw up a K-map, solve a
Fourier/Laplace transform, or even solve a differential equation. The
closest I ever came to using my math background was estimating the
amount of dirt required to make a ramp while serving in the Army. My
troops thought was it pretty neat trick. Of course, it was freshmen
(high school) geometry only.


> Whats your CCIE number Bernie? It's so easy and cheesy to get, you
> must have gotten one as they ARE valuable.

Not as valuable as you might think. At one point, they were QUITE
valuable. But I speak from experience. In the last year, I helped
interview over 50+ people for 10 positions. 4 in network engineering
(ironic, no?) and the rest in Ops. CCIE certification was never a
factor. It was the people who could pass the interview that got the
jobs.

--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
************************************************** ******************
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
************************************************** ******************

"Bernie" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:20:59 -0700, "ec" <> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bernie" <> wrote in message
> >news.. .
> >> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:43:50 GMT, "AT" <torgny@@direcway.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Bernie" <> wrote in message
> >> >news:.. .
> >> >> Quick question. Do you mean real engineers, psuedo-engineers (who
> >> >> arguably do perform *some* engineering tasks but are not certified
by
> >> >> state government as "engineers"), or the completely fake engineers
who
> >> >> make a joke out of the real term "engineer" by attaching it to
people
> >> >> who pass silly Prometric exams?
> >> >>
> >> >> --Bernie
> >> >
> >> >Engineer is a Job Title! Meaning if you have the job as an engineer
then
> >you
> >> >are an engineer!
> >>
> >> Correction. Today it is a job title and a professional degree which
> >> also has governmental controls (e.g. state board certification etc.).
> >> It used to only be the latter. The title engineer has been so
> >> cheapened by cheesy jobs and lame vendor certifications that adopted
> >> that title to grant an automatic (and cheaply bought I might add)
> >> elevation in status.
> >>
> >> So ten years from now when "engineer" no longer carries even the
> >> pitiful status it retains has today, are we going work the word
> >> "doctor" into our titles to get a further cheaply bought elevation?
> >> I'm a "network doctor" (not an MD).... scratch that, I'm a "senior
> >> network doctor." Oops now that everyone is calling themselves a
> >> senior network doctor, I am now a "level three senior network doctor."
> >>
> >> Maybe after that we will start calling ourselves scientists or lawyers
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> See how ridiculous that is? It is a slippery slope when you start
> >> cheapening titles that used to mean something.
> >>
> >> >On the other hand you can have an education as an engineer
> >> >but not have a job as an engineer. In this case I would not consider
you
> >as
> >> >an engineer.
> >>
> >> But what does it matter what you consider someone if the state board
> >> considers someone a civil engineer, electrical engineer, etc?
> >>
> >> >Complicated? Could be, but that's life!
> >> >
> >> >The original question is too wide to even try to answer.
> >>
> >> Yes it is! That was partly my point.
> >>
> >> --Bernie
> >
> >Oh, and the CCIE is a "cheesy" cert right?
>
> E stands for Expert in case you weren't aware, lol.
>
> >Those guys aren't real engineers,
>
> No they aren't. I'll leave it to you to try to make the case that
> they are.
>
> >right? Whats your CCIE number Bernie? It's so easy and cheesy to get, you
> >must have gotten one as they ARE valuable.
>
> See above.
>
> --Bernie

Please enlighten me on the proper terminology then, Bernie, to replace the
"engineering" in network engineering. If a client wants me to engineer a
solution for them...shall I say I will tech it for them? Please see the
definition of engineer in the dictionary. It does not say "requires an
undegraduate degree in an engineering discipline and state certification as
such". An undergrad in engineering in no way makes you superior to someone
else doing the same job, albeit possibly better, who doesn't have a degree.
Network Engineer and Systems Engineer ( not talking about "MCSE" ) are valid
titles for people in IT who perform roles they specify, JUST AS MUCH as an
EE designing ASIC's. Getting a 4 year degree requires no talent nor large
amount of intelligence. It requires patience and funding. I have a friend
who graudated high school with a 2.6 GPA, got 990 on his SAT, and graduated
college with a BSEE. I am NOT downplaying the good EE's out there, I am just
saying an engineering degree doesn't hold any more water than an IT
certification. The person needs to be put on the job to make the real
judgement.