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Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

 
 
nospam
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
-------------------------
We're Sorry
As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....

What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????

Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?

WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!

HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????

BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST DESIGN
CHANGES ISN'T IT?

BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!

EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able to
do it??????

Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?

WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
(OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the KEY
things change all the time?

OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use Inheritance,
why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?

Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHERITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED


You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model can't
work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?

If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
even have a web site be able to do it?

BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING QUESTIONS
ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT A
PDC SEMINAR....



EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
implementing changes...
Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
Fortune 500 web site?????


STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!

THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.

IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.

AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????



THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
------------------------------------------------
We're Sorry
As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also. With
the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to put
a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch the
new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.

Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will be
up shortly.






 
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Fergus Cooney
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
Hello nospam,

How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and progressing nicely
with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at the usual
bargain prices.

Regards,
Fergus


 
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Empire City
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
The site looks very nice to me.

> HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?


Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle. Subtract
from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to produce
the same result.

> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????


They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
and specification.

> BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

DESIGN
> CHANGES ISN'T IT?


If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?

> IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!


I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system to
be able to make me a cheeseburger.

> world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able

to
> do it??????


Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was auditable
they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
day. I think they could afford a good design.

> Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more

features

Is that a trick question?

> and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
> PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?


Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of my
world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).

> WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
> (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the

KEY
> things change all the time?


What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
basement anymore.

> OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

Inheritance,
> why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?


Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a good
way to use Inheritance.

> BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

QUESTIONS
> ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT

A
> PDC SEMINAR....


That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.

> EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> implementing changes...
> Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
> Fortune 500 web site?????


So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?

> THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.


Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
fact.

> IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
> COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.


Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated to
see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.

> AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????


Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario of
what you are looking at.

You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design, ie:
been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as is
the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of that.
One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level analyst,
senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst, senior
business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.

I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your posting.
It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
limited way.



 
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Empire City
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      11-08-2003
Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.



 
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Empire City
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      11-08-2003
Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.



 
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Empire City
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      11-08-2003
Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.



 
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Bob Lehmann
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      11-08-2003
So, do you only read the csharp group? :>)

PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

Bob Lehmann

"Empire City" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:sU8rb.126822$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
>
>
>



 
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Empire City
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
ignoramus.

I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
into the framework and aspnet side.

> PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
> unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.




 
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Fergus Cooney
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
Hi Empire,

Well, the whole VB group is reading you loud and clear, over!
And all the others listed up there in the newsgroups box.

So, inadvertent or not, Welcome to the world outside csharp. )

Regards,
Fergus


 
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William Ryan
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-08-2003
My job isn't going offshore... and heck, I have more work than I can shake a
stick at. You live in the richest country in the world and have
opportunities that many people can only dream of. If people many more
hurdles than you ever had to deal with can convince those paying you, to go
with them instead to the point it disrupts your career, that says a lot more
about you than it does about OOP.

You can't build anything worth selling without embracing objects... you are
insane.

Can you show us some examples of your ultra elite web sites or programs?
How about a press release from some of your stellar products? Or a Resume?

Since I have yet to see you post anything positive or productive, why don't
you and Bailo start a PhP newsgroup somewhere, you can even write it in one
tier with procedural code, and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your
database.
"nospam" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
> -------------------------
> We're Sorry
> As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
> overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....
>
> What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????
>
> Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?
>
> WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!
>
> HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>
> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????
>
> BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

DESIGN
> CHANGES ISN'T IT?
>
> BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.
>
> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
>
> IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!
>
> EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
> world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able

to
> do it??????
>
> Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
> features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the

DESIGN
> PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?
>
> WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
> (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the

KEY
> things change all the time?
>
> OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

Inheritance,
> why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?
>
> Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHERITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
> QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED
>
>
> You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model

can't
> work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?
>
> If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
> even have a web site be able to do it?
>
> BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

QUESTIONS
> ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT

A
> PDC SEMINAR....
>
>
>
> EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> implementing changes...
> Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
> Fortune 500 web site?????
>
>
> STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!
>
> THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.
>
> IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
> COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.
>
> AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????
>
>
>
> THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
> ------------------------------------------------
> We're Sorry
> As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
> overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.

With
> the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
> don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to

put
> a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
> you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
> Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch

the
> new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
> Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
> launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.
>
> Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will

be
> up shortly.
>
>
>
>
>
>



 
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