> Since my time is limited, Clint Kennedy has 48 hrs. to submit proof of his
> positions or be considered either a coward or a loser.
Yes, I know highschool can be a very busy time. Reconsider your stentence:
I would be considered a coward or loser by *you*. I would be considered a
coward or loser by a highschool know it all that still lives with mommy.
You have the whole world figured out from your perspective in highschool.
This is a waste of *my* time (some of us that have jobs in the real world),
but I'll try responding one last time to see if you might be able to
understand what we've been saying to you. I don't know why you keep coming
back to this, obviously putting a lot of thought into it as if you're going
to get some form of respect. It's quite scary, really. I couldn't care
less if anyone else thinks I'm right or wrong, I know what my opinions are
and couldn't care less if anyone else (including a highschool child) agrees.
What I *do* have a problem with is the fact that you've missed the point
here. If anything, you might at LEAST be able to understand our point,
because you clearly don't. Every post you've written in response does not
even hint at an understanding of our point. By the way, our points are
mutually exclusive from yours, most of the time, so this isn't a matter of
disproving what you've said ... except in one case.
1. What you are trying to prove has not been clearly defined.
You never stated what you initially meant to prove. The only thing that
you've proven is that associate degrees, technical universities, or
vocational schools accept certifications for "college" credit. No one has
ever argued this point with you. This is a well known fact that any idiot
knows. You're acting like your proving the sky is blue. Harder to come by,
even some accredited universities with 4 year programs (which I consider a
different flavor of "college") allow you to apply advanced certifications
towards an *elective*, but I've yet to see any accredited 4 year
university's COMPUTER SCIENCE program that will drop relational database
management systems design and theory for a class in Microsoft Access, as I
believe you pointed out in one of your posts. You have to be joking. Have
you taken a theory based RDBMS class? Do you even KNOW what you're talking
about? Of course you haven't, and of course you don't, you are in
highschool. Is this bad or an insult? Of course not, we were all in
highschool at some point. It simply means you haven't been exposed to what
you're professing as truth. Well, I have, and I know it couldn't even begin
to compare to taking a course in Microsoft Access. Now, it is quite
probable that technical schools or associate degree plans have a class they
call database systems in which they profess current implementations rather
than theory. These courses might teach Oracle, SQL in general, Access,
whatever. Again, this is a case of calling multiple animals the same name.
Also, are you discussing BCIS or BSCS? Be specific. Several things you've
said would probably apply to a degree in BCIS or information systems. If I
can remember, I posted in response to wblane's post regarding computer
science, in particular. Furthermore, you self-declared your statements as
proof, then had the nerve to say you've disproved what I've said. You
haven't disproved anything except what you've invented in your head. It's
clear to me that you don't READ considering you wrote this: "Thousands of
ads PROVE you wrong, anybody knows that degrees + certs. is the best way to
go and if you don't then you would be the only hiring manager in the world
to stand apart from this proven path." If you would take the time to READ
my posts, you would find the post which I said that I AGREE with the fact
that having both degrees and certificaitons is the way to go. Again,
another point which I already agree with, I've never argued against, yet you
are trying to disprove my statements with the antithesis of what I've
already agreed with. Have you ever considered using common sense? I went
on to say in the post that not only do I support both degrees and
certifications, but I have obtained BOTH and continue to obtain more. Why
would I do this if I didn't agree? This was never the point I was arguing,
yet you've seem to gone ballistic about it, ignoring everything else (this
is a sign of a young mind that hasn't learned patience, maturity, and
open-mindedness in education ... a.k.a. know it all that only cares who is
right and who is wrong for ego purposes.) I know you aren't getting into a
personal stature battle with me. We can compare walls and years of
experience to see who is more fit to qualify a remark. It seems as if that
is all you are concerned with, proving you are right and some stranger you
don't even know is wrong. That is quite sad. You are not going to make it
very long in the industry with that kind of attitude. Trust me, I've seen
several people with that kind of attitude come, and then GO (can you guess
why?).
The only point that I have ever made, which you CANNOT disprove because it
is my opinion, is that as a hiring manager *I* (not Pikoro or anyone else on
this planet) give a different weight to a 4 year accredited computer science
degree than I do to certifications or techinical schools by themselves,
simply because the two are entirely different animals. I could tell you
that I've been in the industry longer than you've had pubes, and know this
as a general truth among corporations which could lead to a more
industry-wide opinion (the basis of my original statements), but that
wouldn't be good enough for you since you don't consider experience to have
any weight. Therefore, to appease your comeback, I will state that there is
a *high probability*other corporations do as well, especially in the era of
braindumps and paper MCSEs, etc.. You seem to know everything about the
industry by reading job ads (*sigh*), so start counting how many ask for
Bachelor's in COMPUTER SCIENCE. That is NOT a BCIS degree or an associate's
degree or a technical school degree. Now, let me clear a few statements up
since you've put words in my mouth. Do I want to see both degrees and certs
on a resume? Absolutely! Have I already stated this fact? YES, I have
(which you glossed over). Do I have both on my resume? Yes, I do. Now, is
this to say cets don't have weight? Of course not ... no one has said that
to you a single time. What you've done is taken the point we are arguing
and either accidentally misconstrued it (which is forgiveable, especially if
we didn't express our point clearly enough, which would be our on fault ...
some of us don't have the time you have to put 20 mins of thought into a
post), or simply reinvented our argument, then spent tons of time
"disproving" your own conception of our point! It seems like you think our
point is that you can't get a job without a 4 year degree. We've NEVER said
that. Hell, if I was hiring for a PC Tech or a network tech, the only thing
I'd care to see is experience! If they had certs to go wth it, great!
However, there are TONS of jobs out there that are particular to computer
science which none of the classes you listed even begin to touch on. The
point, and the ONLY point, is that equating those types of classes to a 4
year accredited computer science degree is NOT CORRECT. That's it. That's
all we've ever said, and if it hasn't been clear before, IT IS NOW. If you
would have calmly asked us to elaborate we could have, but that's now how
you work. I tell ya what, go to Berkley, UT, Northwestern, A&M, any well
known accredited comp sci program and tell them you want credit for all of
your certifications and that you'd like to apply your Access class towards
RDBMS and you feel like you've already obtained an equal education from the
certifications and techincal schools. As they laugh you out the door, you
might remember us.
Don't you think we all at some point at least CONSIDERED the same ideas you
are stating now? All of us were in highschool at one point ... and possibly
thought the same way you do. We then experienced the real world and
learned, on some occassions, conflicting truths. If you don't want to at
least consider what we are saying, that is completely your right. Simply
read the post, say you don't agree, and move on. Trying to disprove
something you don't agree with and making comments about who is smarter is
just ridiculous. What is next? "My dad can beat up your dad." I mean,
grow up. I also find it funny you are the biggest name caller among all of
us, yet say *OUR* posts are full of insults and rants? In the real world,
you will ALWAYS come into contact with people that no matter what you do or
say will not agree with you. Wasting your energy with proofs, calling
people names, calling them cowards trying to get them to admit they are
wrong ... is a waste of your time, and won't fly in the real world. Learn
from someone older than you that's been around, it isn't worth the energy.
Just agree to disagree and move forward. Again, the only thing I've
disagreed with is equating those types of courses to the types of courses
found in a 4 year accredited univerity bachelor of science in computer
science degree. If you want to bitch and moan or disprove anything,
disprove THAT POINT as a generality, not one obscure college you can find in
the middle of nowhere. I want to see it as a de facto. Anything else and
you're blowing smoke.
On another note, it isn't wise to hardly know someone and assume you are
smarter or know more. Never underestimate anyone out there. If you'd like
to have an intellectual challenge to prove you are right, I suggest this:
finish your certifications. Go to whatever techincal school or associates
program you want. When you think you know everything and that what you know
compares to computer science, I'd be more than willing to sit down to an
algorithmic complexity or design test, discrete mathematics, finite automata
(or even nfas), data structures, relational database algorithms and theory,
low-level architecure and organization (no, not the pussy A+ material),
languages design, microprocessor design (with VHDL simulations, what the
hell), simulation theory, ... anything you'd like that relates to computer
science. I guarantee you I'd have your ass waxed before you got your name
on the page. Oh, wait, if I were you I would've ended this with "your name
on the page, pussy."
If you want clarifications of what my OPINION is, and can discuss things in
a grown-up fashion, I'd be more than happy to continue this thread.
However, if you are inistant on disproving something you cannot disprove,
you will be ignored by me (and probably everyone else) ... while we watch
you run around in circles inventing arguments to disprove based on false
premise. I also will not respond to any more "challenges." You seem to be
the type that has to get in the last word. I feel like I've stated my case
here, so you can get in whatever last word you want ... I'll most likely
ignore it.
Although a little warped, you seem to have a bright mind for your age, don't
waste it making problems for yourself! There are better ways to have a
discussion. All in all, you need to grow up.
Clint Kennedy
BSCS (CSAB/CSAC), MCP, A+
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