iframe validation issues

01-13-2009

richard wrote:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>> richard wrote:
>>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>>>> richard wrote:
>>>>> Saber wrote:
>>>>>> the iframe tag. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> iframes are not valid in strict, only tranisitional.
>>>>
>>>> Or Frameset, right?
>>>
>>> To my understanding, iframe is totally independent of a framset. I
>>> suppose if one really wanted to totally screw it up, then one could
>>> embed an iframe within a page that is part of a framset.
>>
>> Of course it is independent of a frameset, but it uses the same
>> doctype, which was my point.
>
> frameset is allowed in all doctypes.

No they aren't. Framesets are allowed (where validity is concerned) only
in a Frameset doctype. Read the specs.

http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/frameset.dtd">

> I tried using iframe in 4.01 strict and it just would not happen.

Of course not, for the reason I just stated.

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows

01-13-2009

In article <>,
richard <> wrote:

> To my understanding, iframe is totally independent of a framset.
> I suppose if one really wanted to totally screw it up, then one could
> embed an iframe within a page that is part of a framset.

Logically speaking, you would not be totally screwing things up because
the idea of a frameset/frames proper is different to the idea of a
context/i-frame, they have different purposes. The former is about
partitioning a page whereas the latter is about popping a box (like an
image) inline, the box being a special container that can take another
website page.

As to how all this goes with what doctypes, the history of it vis a vis
validation, my impression is that it is all a bit of a stinking mess.

I agree with you that the purpose of the i-frame can be achieved outside
the context of a frameset setting and doctype, as in

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/frames/iFrameTransitional4.01.html>

But, if its purpose can be realised as above, and if proper frame is for
dividing a page up into frames into which can be loaded other pages, it
follows that the two purposes, for real frames and i-frames are entirely
consistent with each other.

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/frames/framesetWithFrameWithIframe.html>

--
dorayme

01-13-2009

On 12 Jan 2009, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <>
wrote:

> richard wrote:
>
>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>>> richard wrote:
>>>> Saber wrote:
>>>>> the iframe tag. ...
>>>>
>>>> iframes are not valid in strict, only tranisitional.
>>>
>>> Or Frameset, right?
>>
>> To my understanding, iframe is totally independent of a framset. I
>> suppose if one really wanted to totally screw it up, then one could
>> embed an iframe within a page that is part of a framset.
>
> Of course it is independent of a frameset, but it uses the same
> doctype, which was my point.

I really don't follow this. Iframe is _not_ valid "in Frameset"
although in can be valid within a framed page if that's what you mean.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.org/
http://www.neredbojias.net/
The road to Heaven is paved with bad intentions.

01-13-2009

Neredbojias wrote:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>> richard wrote:
>>> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>>>> richard wrote:
>>>>> Saber wrote:
>>>>>> the iframe tag. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> iframes are not valid in strict, only tranisitional.
>>>>
>>>> Or Frameset, right?
>>>
>>> To my understanding, iframe is totally independent of a framset. I
>>> suppose if one really wanted to totally screw it up, then one could
>>> embed an iframe within a page that is part of a framset.
>>
>> Of course it is independent of a frameset, but it uses the same
>> doctype, which was my point.
>
> I really don't follow this. Iframe is _not_ valid "in Frameset"
> although in can be valid within a framed page if that's what you
> mean.

I believe what I am saying is, that using an <iframe> element within a
Strict doctype page is not valid, per w3c. Using an <iframe> in a
document that has the Frameset doctype, the <iframe> is not shown as an
error.

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows

01-14-2009

On 13 Jan 2009, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <>
wrote:

>> Neredbojias wrote:
>> I really don't follow this. Iframe is _not_ valid "in Frameset"
>> although in can be valid within a framed page if that's what you
>> mean.
>
> I believe what I am saying is, that using an <iframe> element within
> a Strict doctype page is not valid, per w3c. Using an <iframe> in a
> document that has the Frameset doctype, the <iframe> is not shown as
> an error.

Okay, but according to the html 4.01 spec, iframe is only valid in
transitional.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.org/
http://www.neredbojias.net/
The road to Heaven is paved with bad intentions.

01-14-2009

Neredbojias wrote:

> On 13 Jan 2009, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
> <> wrote:
>
>>> Neredbojias wrote:
>>> I really don't follow this. Iframe is _not_ valid "in Frameset"
>>> although in can be valid within a framed page if that's what you
>>> mean.
>>
>> I believe what I am saying is, that using an <iframe> element within
>> a Strict doctype page is not valid, per w3c. Using an <iframe> in a
>> document that has the Frameset doctype, the <iframe> is not shown as
>> an error.
>
> Okay, but according to the html 4.01 spec, iframe is only valid in
> transitional.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html

That page is just an informal summary. It is very useful, but in a dispute
or uncertainty, the formal definitions and normative prose should be
checked.

The DTD column there is partly misleading, since some (actually, most)
elements that have L there should have both L and F. Moreover, the empty
cells should be read "this element appears in all DTDs", which is not
immediately obvious from the page.

The Frameset DTD is just a variant of the Transitional DTD, as you can see
from
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/framesetdtd.html
which really says that the DTDs are identical except for
<!ENTITY % HTML.Frameset "INCLUDE">
which makes some parts of the Transitional DTD enabled in Frameset variant
(only).

In particular, the FRAMESET element may contain the NOFRAMES part (commonly
used to demonstrate the author's cluelessness, such "This page requires
frames"), which in turn contains a BODY element, which may contain anything
that the BODY of a Transitional document may contain. This of course
includes IFRAME.

On the other hand, it would be "somewhat" weird to have IFRAME inside an
element whose content is ignored on any frames-enabled browser. (It is
remotely possible that some odd browser somewhere has a mode where "normal"
frames are disabled but inline frames are enabled. I never saw one... but
actually I think one could easily turn a normal browser into such an oddity,
by using simple CSS that sets frame { display: none; }. But why?)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

01-14-2009

Neredbojias wrote:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>>> Neredbojias wrote: I really don't follow this. Iframe is _not_
>>> valid "in Frameset" although in can be valid within a framed page
>>> if that's what you mean.
>>
>> I believe what I am saying is, that using an <iframe> element within
>> a Strict doctype page is not valid, per w3c. Using an <iframe> in a
>> document that has the Frameset doctype, the <iframe> is not shown as
>> an error.
>
> Okay, but according to the html 4.01 spec, iframe is only valid in
> transitional.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html

What Jukka said.

Earlier, I had futzed with a page on my local server, adding an iframe
and validating with all the three doctypes. Both a Frameset or a
Transitional doctype showed no error, but Strict did.

I don't have a need to use either frames or iframes.

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows

01-14-2009

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

> On the other hand, it would be "somewhat" weird to have IFRAME inside
> an element whose content is ignored on any frames-enabled browser.
> (It is remotely possible that some odd browser somewhere has a mode
> where "normal" frames are disabled but inline frames are enabled. - -

Actually there is... and it's a not a particularly odd browser: Opera
(version 9.62) has settings, under content settings > style settings,
separately options for enabling ("normal") frames and for enabling inline
frames.

Using IFRAME in a frameset document is of course still rather odd, but it's
valid - and an artificial use case might be constructed.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

01-15-2009

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> Saber wrote:
>
>> Hey all, I cannot get a page I am working on to validate so I was
>> wondering if I can get any help here. As the subject says, it is with
>> the iframe tag. (I am using 4.01 Strict) ...
>
> You would need a frameset doctype ... (that was easy!)
>
> However, I'd stick with 4.01 Strict and ignore the error for google's
> iframe. None of your visitors will care.
>
> Certainly, do not switch to Transitional.
>
Well, the frameset doctype makes sense. If I leave it as 4.01 Strict,
that won't effect anyone's viewing the site though, right?
Thanks

--
Saber

01-15-2009

Saber wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> Saber wrote:
>>> Hey all, I cannot get a page I am working on to validate so I was
>>> wondering if I can get any help here. As the subject says, it is
>>> with the iframe tag. (I am using 4.01 Strict) ...
>>
>> You would need a frameset doctype ... (that was easy!)
>>
>> However, I'd stick with 4.01 Strict and ignore the error for
>> google's iframe. None of your visitors will care.
>>
>> Certainly, do not switch to Transitional.
>>
> Well, the frameset doctype makes sense.

No, not really. You would only want to use a frameset doctype if you
were actually using (evil) frames.

> If I leave it as 4.01 Strict, that won't effect anyone's viewing the
> site though, right? Thanks

No, it should not. Just don't put that W3C 'valid' icon on the page.

--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows

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