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braindumps and cert

 
 
Disallusioned
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-24-2003
I was planning on getting my certification for
professional reasons. However, I have since read most of
the posts here about the dump sites and how it has
diluted the certifications dramatically.

My conclusions from the posts I have read:

1. Microsoft certifications (and others as well) are
worthless due to the ease with which one can cheat and
obtain the cert.

2. Real professionals don't need the certs.

How depressing!

This doesn't have to be the case, you know. There is no
reason why Microsoft can't thwart the braindump cheaters
by changing up the tests as soon as they see the test is
compromised. Don't be so hard on the braindumpers, it is
Microsoft's responsibility to insure the value of their
certs. There have always been cheaters and there always
will be. However, I have never seen it so easy as with
the cert exams!

I already have my first test scheduled and will probably
take it anyway, but you guys and gals have talked me out
of going any farther.

Thanks.
 
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Anonymizer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-24-2003
Sorry to hear that

Please dont lose heart just because others took a
shortcut. After all you're doing it to learn and better
yourself. The fact that the other guy cheated doesnt
affect your learning at all.

The way I see it : I could spend a couple of years
working in .NET to learn it as I go. I spent 3+ years in
ASP/VB and there's still quite a lot of things that I
missed out on because I was learning as I went but never
strayed off the beaten path and frankly never had the
time on a project.

Or I could sit down and study for a few months and really
learn things and take a test to make sure I know it, as
more of a milestone than a goal.

Unlike with ASP/VB, with .NET now there's a strong line
being drawn between developers and the mickey mouse types
that spent a week or two reading a dummies book.
Bullsh*t can only get you so far.

Day by day at my work, I see a very strong line forming
between those who know what they're doing and those who
don't even know that they don't.

Paper or no paper I know what I'm doing and I have the
confidence to back my sh*t up. And I'm not the only one
that notices that either.
 
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hello
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-24-2003
I'm always happy to read about people who care not to cheat. Unfortunately I
believe that there are a LOT more cheaters than non cheaters.


"Paisleyskye" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Exactly, please don't hurt your heart and your ambition just because some
> choose to use braindumps. Instead, concentrate hard and have the
> satisfaction of knowing you got your certificaiton the legal way.
>
> --
> Paisleyskye
> http://www.icertify.net
> "Anonymizer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:489601c3b22a$604c75a0$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Sorry to hear that
> >
> > Please dont lose heart just because others took a
> > shortcut. After all you're doing it to learn and better
> > yourself. The fact that the other guy cheated doesnt
> > affect your learning at all.
> >
> > The way I see it : I could spend a couple of years
> > working in .NET to learn it as I go. I spent 3+ years in
> > ASP/VB and there's still quite a lot of things that I
> > missed out on because I was learning as I went but never
> > strayed off the beaten path and frankly never had the
> > time on a project.
> >
> > Or I could sit down and study for a few months and really
> > learn things and take a test to make sure I know it, as
> > more of a milestone than a goal.
> >
> > Unlike with ASP/VB, with .NET now there's a strong line
> > being drawn between developers and the mickey mouse types
> > that spent a week or two reading a dummies book.
> > Bullsh*t can only get you so far.
> >
> > Day by day at my work, I see a very strong line forming
> > between those who know what they're doing and those who
> > don't even know that they don't.
> >
> > Paper or no paper I know what I'm doing and I have the
> > confidence to back my sh*t up. And I'm not the only one
> > that notices that either.

>
>



 
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hello
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-24-2003
1. Agree with that point.

2. Disagree. I think the .NET exams are very well done. The questions are
relevant and not easy. If there were virtually no cheating, then the .NET
certs could really mean a lot.

Microsoft can't change the exams everytime the questions become public,
because that would be extremely costly and possibly even unfair. The level
of difficulty has to be consistent. What I believe Microsoft should do, is
to have a huge number of questions to pool from. If someone can learn the
whole of MSDN library, then I say that person is more than an expert. So if
someone can remember thousands and thousands of actual test
questions/answers, then that person deserve to get certified.

Personally, I never saw any braindump, so I can only guess what people are
talking about.

The learning journey to Microsoft certification is what is really relevant.
Getting the cert itself is worthless from a career perspective. But you can
be proud of yourself holding the cert if you did not cheat.

Don't give up.


"Disallusioned" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:05a601c3b221$76556a40$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I was planning on getting my certification for
> professional reasons. However, I have since read most of
> the posts here about the dump sites and how it has
> diluted the certifications dramatically.
>
> My conclusions from the posts I have read:
>
> 1. Microsoft certifications (and others as well) are
> worthless due to the ease with which one can cheat and
> obtain the cert.
>
> 2. Real professionals don't need the certs.
>
> How depressing!
>
> This doesn't have to be the case, you know. There is no
> reason why Microsoft can't thwart the braindump cheaters
> by changing up the tests as soon as they see the test is
> compromised. Don't be so hard on the braindumpers, it is
> Microsoft's responsibility to insure the value of their
> certs. There have always been cheaters and there always
> will be. However, I have never seen it so easy as with
> the cert exams!
>
> I already have my first test scheduled and will probably
> take it anyway, but you guys and gals have talked me out
> of going any farther.
>
> Thanks.



 
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General Protection Fault
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-24-2003
hello wrote:

> 1. Agree with that point.
>
> 2. Disagree. I think the .NET exams are very well done. The questions are
> relevant and not easy. If there were virtually no cheating, then the .NET
> certs could really mean a lot.
>
> Microsoft can't change the exams everytime the questions become public,
> because that would be extremely costly and possibly even unfair. The level
> of difficulty has to be consistent. What I believe Microsoft should do, is
> to have a huge number of questions to pool from. If someone can learn the
> whole of MSDN library, then I say that person is more than an expert. So if
> someone can remember thousands and thousands of actual test
> questions/answers, then that person deserve to get certified.
>
> Personally, I never saw any braindump, so I can only guess what people are
> talking about.
>
> The learning journey to Microsoft certification is what is really relevant.
> Getting the cert itself is worthless from a career perspective. But you can
> be proud of yourself holding the cert if you did not cheat.


I wonder if it's even easier to memorize the answers to the questions.
It seems to me you'd inadvertantly *learn* something, and that's easier.

 
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disallusioned
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-25-2003
I agree that Microsoft should have a large pool of
questions to draw from. Both the FAA and FCC do that with
their tests. They publish the pool, too. The concept is
that if you want to study all 500 test questions before
the exam, go for it. You can learn from it. All pilots
today have had access to test questions for their license
beforehand. Does that mean they are "paper" pilots?

Ok, you guys have convinced me to go forward. The
learning will be worth it, whether the cert is worth it
or not.


>-----Original Message-----
>1. Agree with that point.
>
>2. Disagree. I think the .NET exams are very well done.

The questions are
>relevant and not easy. If there were virtually no

cheating, then the .NET
>certs could really mean a lot.
>
>Microsoft can't change the exams everytime the questions

become public,
>because that would be extremely costly and possibly even

unfair. The level
>of difficulty has to be consistent. What I believe

Microsoft should do, is
>to have a huge number of questions to pool from. If

someone can learn the
>whole of MSDN library, then I say that person is more

than an expert. So if
>someone can remember thousands and thousands of actual

test
>questions/answers, then that person deserve to get

certified.
>
>Personally, I never saw any braindump, so I can only

guess what people are
>talking about.
>
>The learning journey to Microsoft certification is what

is really relevant.
>Getting the cert itself is worthless from a career

perspective. But you can
>be proud of yourself holding the cert if you did not

cheat.
>
>Don't give up.
>
>
>"Disallusioned" <(E-Mail Removed)>

wrote in message
>news:05a601c3b221$76556a40$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> I was planning on getting my certification for
>> professional reasons. However, I have since read most

of
>> the posts here about the dump sites and how it has
>> diluted the certifications dramatically.
>>
>> My conclusions from the posts I have read:
>>
>> 1. Microsoft certifications (and others as well) are
>> worthless due to the ease with which one can cheat and
>> obtain the cert.
>>
>> 2. Real professionals don't need the certs.
>>
>> How depressing!
>>
>> This doesn't have to be the case, you know. There is no
>> reason why Microsoft can't thwart the braindump

cheaters
>> by changing up the tests as soon as they see the test

is
>> compromised. Don't be so hard on the braindumpers, it

is
>> Microsoft's responsibility to insure the value of their
>> certs. There have always been cheaters and there always
>> will be. However, I have never seen it so easy as with
>> the cert exams!
>>
>> I already have my first test scheduled and will

probably
>> take it anyway, but you guys and gals have talked me

out
>> of going any farther.
>>
>> Thanks.

>
>
>.
>

 
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Jereniva
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2003
How exactly is studying a braindump cheating?

Is standing around outside the testing center, cramming
with friends considered cheating?

Is studying in a group cheating? You're getting
oral 'brain dump' aren't you?

You can get all the certifications you want, those letters
on your resume may even help you get an interview as
opposed to having your application get tossed aside. But
nobody, I mean nobody hiring for a position beyond Level-0
help desk, is going to just hire you based on your pretty
little resume with all the letters lined up and looking
right.

But when it comes down to it - professionals talk
together, it's how they learn and it's how they get better
at what they do.
Nothing wrong with looking over a brain dump, nothing
whatsoever.

There will always be little facts that require simple rote
memory until you've used them enough in your career that
you don't need to actually think about it. You do this by
cramming. It's unfornately the way it is. As a child, you
learned your ABC's that way, you learned your
multiplication tables that way. and Years ago, I had to
just sit there and memorize IP ranges for different
classes in that same way.

In short, to the original poster, passing a Microsoft exam
is feat in and of itself. No, it isn't climbing Everest,
but it's a feat. I'm in my 15th year as IT manager, I hold
MCSE in NT4 and 2000, plus a handful of other exams (VB
and SQL Srvr 7.0 design)

 
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hello
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2003

"Jereniva" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:6b5f01c3b3b2$185f5f80$(E-Mail Removed)...
> How exactly is studying a braindump cheating?

It's people like these who really bother me. Because they really can't see
what is wrong with getting the actual questions and answers before going for
the actual exam is cheating. I guess we all have different views when it
comes to what is right and wrong.


>
> Is standing around outside the testing center, cramming
> with friends considered cheating?

If your friends are giving you actual test questions/answers, then yes it is
cheating. They are also breaking their NDA by doing so.


>
> Is studying in a group cheating? You're getting
> oral 'brain dump' aren't you?

Same as my previous answer.


>
> You can get all the certifications you want, those letters
> on your resume may even help you get an interview as
> opposed to having your application get tossed aside. But
> nobody, I mean nobody hiring for a position beyond Level-0
> help desk, is going to just hire you based on your pretty
> little resume with all the letters lined up and looking
> right.

Is that a problem for that new desktop certification then? What if I just
put a series of fake certs on my resume, just to get it to show up when
employers do a search (actually I think some people do that too )?


>
> But when it comes down to it - professionals talk
> together, it's how they learn and it's how they get better
> at what they do.
> Nothing wrong with looking over a brain dump, nothing
> whatsoever.

What if there were only 5 questions to get MCSD.NET? Always the same 5
questions. I could get a kindergarten to learn the answers for those 5
questions and that kid will get MCSD.NET. While another professional will
spend months studying and pass. Does the MCSD.NET cert say anything about
the skill of both individuals?

>
> There will always be little facts that require simple rote
> memory until you've used them enough in your career that
> you don't need to actually think about it. You do this by
> cramming. It's unfornately the way it is. As a child, you
> learned your ABC's that way, you learned your
> multiplication tables that way. and Years ago, I had to
> just sit there and memorize IP ranges for different
> classes in that same way.
>
> In short, to the original poster, passing a Microsoft exam
> is feat in and of itself. No, it isn't climbing Everest,
> but it's a feat. I'm in my 15th year as IT manager, I hold
> MCSE in NT4 and 2000, plus a handful of other exams (VB
> and SQL Srvr 7.0 design)
>



 
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Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-26-2003
I am telling you, as a person who is an IT manager and has
been one for over 15 years; As a person who has
interviewed enough prospective entry-level IT techs to
fill a basketball gym - the candidate can have all the
letters he or she wants on the resume. The person who has
only read books and memorized brainfarts, then managed to
pass exams, is not difficult to pick out.

A few pointed questions along the lines of, "The WinSock
service on your Proxy server is crashing regularly, around
12:15 each afternoon. How do you go about resolving this?"
or "You have a visiting consultatant who needs to hook up
his laptop to our network and get Internet access, how do
you go about doing this?"
will quickly weed out the person who memorized all the
braindump questions he could get his hands on and managed
to pass a Microsoft exam from the ones who really know how
to approach problems and solve them.

When interviewing, I'm not going to ask you stupid
questions that result in a 1 sentence answer. I'm going to
answer you a question that forces you to think through
processes. I'm going to watch you, and see if I can follow
your thought process.

Your example about the kindergarten student who passes
the .NET exam would be a reflection on how poorly the exam
works at reflecting the candidate's knowledge. It has
nothing to do with students studying together.

As for what is right or wrong, bringing the answers in to
the exam is wrong, studying the answers outside the
testing room is not wrong.

Find me one university that says it is wrong to talk to
students who just took a test you are set to take to get a
feel for what is on that test before you yourself take it.


>-----Original Message-----
>
>"Jereniva" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

message
>news:6b5f01c3b3b2$185f5f80$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> How exactly is studying a braindump cheating?

>It's people like these who really bother me. Because they

really can't see
>what is wrong with getting the actual questions and

answers before going for
>the actual exam is cheating. I guess we all have

different views when it
>comes to what is right and wrong.
>
>
>>
>> Is standing around outside the testing center, cramming
>> with friends considered cheating?

>If your friends are giving you actual test

questions/answers, then yes it is
>cheating. They are also breaking their NDA by doing so.
>
>
>>
>> Is studying in a group cheating? You're getting
>> oral 'brain dump' aren't you?

>Same as my previous answer.
>
>
>>
>> You can get all the certifications you want, those

letters
>> on your resume may even help you get an interview as
>> opposed to having your application get tossed aside. But
>> nobody, I mean nobody hiring for a position beyond

Level-0
>> help desk, is going to just hire you based on your

pretty
>> little resume with all the letters lined up and looking
>> right.

>Is that a problem for that new desktop certification

then? What if I just
>put a series of fake certs on my resume, just to get it

to show up when
>employers do a search (actually I think some people do

that too )?
>
>
>>
>> But when it comes down to it - professionals talk
>> together, it's how they learn and it's how they get

better
>> at what they do.
>> Nothing wrong with looking over a brain dump, nothing
>> whatsoever.

>What if there were only 5 questions to get MCSD.NET?

Always the same 5
>questions. I could get a kindergarten to learn the

answers for those 5
>questions and that kid will get MCSD.NET. While another

professional will
>spend months studying and pass. Does the MCSD.NET cert

say anything about
>the skill of both individuals?
>
>>
>> There will always be little facts that require simple

rote
>> memory until you've used them enough in your career that
>> you don't need to actually think about it. You do this

by
>> cramming. It's unfornately the way it is. As a child,

you
>> learned your ABC's that way, you learned your
>> multiplication tables that way. and Years ago, I had to
>> just sit there and memorize IP ranges for different
>> classes in that same way.
>>
>> In short, to the original poster, passing a Microsoft

exam
>> is feat in and of itself. No, it isn't climbing Everest,
>> but it's a feat. I'm in my 15th year as IT manager, I

hold
>> MCSE in NT4 and 2000, plus a handful of other exams (VB
>> and SQL Srvr 7.0 design)
>>

>
>
>.
>

 
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ab
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-27-2003
In theory universities change their exams every year. Some universities even
publish their exams papers afterwards. If you say it is OK to "study" the
actual exam questions and answers, then what about this:
Two resumes from person A and person B. Similar knowledge level but person A
has MCSD.NET, while person B does not.
Should you call person A for an interview and not person B?

I think people reading this now know what is left for them to do.

Anyway, even if some people think that it is OK to get their hands on actual
exam questions and answers is alright, what about the legal side of it? Do
you remember the NDA? Is it OK if someone else broke the law, after all
someone broke the NDA, I'm only using what someone else has "stolen", so
it's fine... is it? I just saw that guy stole that Xbox, I'm buying it from
him for 5 bucks... good deal.

Mr "15 years IT manager", I wonder if someone told you that he used
braindump to get his MCSD.NET, if you would still employ that person.


<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:765d01c3b435$b05a9a60$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I am telling you, as a person who is an IT manager and has
> been one for over 15 years; As a person who has
> interviewed enough prospective entry-level IT techs to
> fill a basketball gym - the candidate can have all the
> letters he or she wants on the resume. The person who has
> only read books and memorized brainfarts, then managed to
> pass exams, is not difficult to pick out.
>
> A few pointed questions along the lines of, "The WinSock
> service on your Proxy server is crashing regularly, around
> 12:15 each afternoon. How do you go about resolving this?"
> or "You have a visiting consultatant who needs to hook up
> his laptop to our network and get Internet access, how do
> you go about doing this?"
> will quickly weed out the person who memorized all the
> braindump questions he could get his hands on and managed
> to pass a Microsoft exam from the ones who really know how
> to approach problems and solve them.
>
> When interviewing, I'm not going to ask you stupid
> questions that result in a 1 sentence answer. I'm going to
> answer you a question that forces you to think through
> processes. I'm going to watch you, and see if I can follow
> your thought process.
>
> Your example about the kindergarten student who passes
> the .NET exam would be a reflection on how poorly the exam
> works at reflecting the candidate's knowledge. It has
> nothing to do with students studying together.
>
> As for what is right or wrong, bringing the answers in to
> the exam is wrong, studying the answers outside the
> testing room is not wrong.
>
> Find me one university that says it is wrong to talk to
> students who just took a test you are set to take to get a
> feel for what is on that test before you yourself take it.
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >
> >"Jereniva" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in

> message
> >news:6b5f01c3b3b2$185f5f80$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> How exactly is studying a braindump cheating?

> >It's people like these who really bother me. Because they

> really can't see
> >what is wrong with getting the actual questions and

> answers before going for
> >the actual exam is cheating. I guess we all have

> different views when it
> >comes to what is right and wrong.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Is standing around outside the testing center, cramming
> >> with friends considered cheating?

> >If your friends are giving you actual test

> questions/answers, then yes it is
> >cheating. They are also breaking their NDA by doing so.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Is studying in a group cheating? You're getting
> >> oral 'brain dump' aren't you?

> >Same as my previous answer.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> You can get all the certifications you want, those

> letters
> >> on your resume may even help you get an interview as
> >> opposed to having your application get tossed aside. But
> >> nobody, I mean nobody hiring for a position beyond

> Level-0
> >> help desk, is going to just hire you based on your

> pretty
> >> little resume with all the letters lined up and looking
> >> right.

> >Is that a problem for that new desktop certification

> then? What if I just
> >put a series of fake certs on my resume, just to get it

> to show up when
> >employers do a search (actually I think some people do

> that too )?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> But when it comes down to it - professionals talk
> >> together, it's how they learn and it's how they get

> better
> >> at what they do.
> >> Nothing wrong with looking over a brain dump, nothing
> >> whatsoever.

> >What if there were only 5 questions to get MCSD.NET?

> Always the same 5
> >questions. I could get a kindergarten to learn the

> answers for those 5
> >questions and that kid will get MCSD.NET. While another

> professional will
> >spend months studying and pass. Does the MCSD.NET cert

> say anything about
> >the skill of both individuals?
> >
> >>
> >> There will always be little facts that require simple

> rote
> >> memory until you've used them enough in your career that
> >> you don't need to actually think about it. You do this

> by
> >> cramming. It's unfornately the way it is. As a child,

> you
> >> learned your ABC's that way, you learned your
> >> multiplication tables that way. and Years ago, I had to
> >> just sit there and memorize IP ranges for different
> >> classes in that same way.
> >>
> >> In short, to the original poster, passing a Microsoft

> exam
> >> is feat in and of itself. No, it isn't climbing Everest,
> >> but it's a feat. I'm in my 15th year as IT manager, I

> hold
> >> MCSE in NT4 and 2000, plus a handful of other exams (VB
> >> and SQL Srvr 7.0 design)
> >>

> >
> >
> >.
> >



 
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