«

Stephen Bishop wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:42:27 -0800, John Navas
[]
>> The subject of the entire thread is pejorative, and your constant
>> use of terms like "p&s" and "disposable" is likewise pejorative.
>> Which is of course why you do it.
>
> I didn't create the title of the thread, but here we are. I wouldn't
> choose that title myself.
>
> "P&S" is a category of camera, and is no more pejorative than "dslr."
> "Disposable" is what you allude to when you said you take it to use
> in conditions where you wouldn't mind if it got lost or damaged
> because it was inexpensive to replace.

The thread title obviously reflects on person's point of view, and it not
one I would have chosen either.

I've tried to suggest alternative terms like "small-sensor" camera
elsewhere in this thread - which is perhaps a more accurate description,
and probably the main distinguishing characteristic. Of course, it
doesn't have the snappiness of P&S. It seems that the term P&S has stuck,
even though many DSLRs also are capable of fully automated settings.

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor wrote:
> Stephen Bishop wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:42:27 -0800, John Navas
> []
>>> The subject of the entire thread is pejorative, and your constant
>>> use of terms like "p&s" and "disposable" is likewise pejorative.
>>> Which is of course why you do it.
>>
>> I didn't create the title of the thread, but here we are. I wouldn't
>> choose that title myself.
>>
>> "P&S" is a category of camera, and is no more pejorative than "dslr."
>> "Disposable" is what you allude to when you said you take it to use
>> in conditions where you wouldn't mind if it got lost or damaged
>> because it was inexpensive to replace.
>
> The thread title obviously reflects on person's point of view, and it
> not one I would have chosen either.
>
> I've tried to suggest alternative terms like "small-sensor" camera
> elsewhere in this thread - which is perhaps a more accurate description,
> and probably the main distinguishing characteristic. Of course, it
> doesn't have the snappiness of P&S. It seems that the term P&S has
> stuck, even though many DSLRs also are capable of fully automated settings.
>
> Cheers,
> David

Add to that the fact that many compact and ultra-zoom digicams have
full-manual controls available, it further muddies the clarity of the
term "P&S" when referring to non-SLR digital cameras.

In article <>, John Navas
<> wrote:

> >I've tried to suggest alternative terms like "small-sensor" camera
> >elsewhere in this thread - which is perhaps a more accurate description,
> >and probably the main distinguishing characteristic.
>
> Not true, a double standard. By that logic most dSLRs are also "small
> sensor" cameras, since they have sensors much smaller than full frame 35
> mm.

don't be ridiculous. by that metric, a phase one medium format back is
a 'small sensor' because it's smaller than a 4x5 view camera.

> The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
> clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term "compact"
> cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you prefer.

no, the main characteristic is the sensor size. the fact that the lens
won't come off is secondary.

> >It seems that the term P&S has stuck,
> >even though many DSLRs also are capable of fully automated settings.
>
> More careful and objective authors use more appropriate terms.

tell that to all of the major camera sellers. like it or not, that's
what it has come to mean.

> This frankly comes across as bias.

maybe to you but not to the rest of the world.

In article <>, John Navas
<> wrote:

> >> This frankly comes across as bias.
> >
> >maybe to you but not to the rest of the world.
>
> You presume to speak for the rest of the world?

nope, i speak only for myself, and what i've noticed is *common usage*
of the term, i.e., used by the rest of the world, typically means a
compact digicam.

furthermore, this is nothing more than nitpicking on terminology and
has little to do with the differences between two cameras.

John Navas wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:19:38 GMT, "David J Taylor"
> <david-> wrote in
> <ecH3l.9855$>:
>
>> Stephen Bishop wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:42:27 -0800, John Navas
>> []
>>>> The subject of the entire thread is pejorative, and your constant
>>>> use of terms like "p&s" and "disposable" is likewise pejorative.
>>>> Which is of course why you do it.
>>> I didn't create the title of the thread, but here we are. I wouldn't
>>> choose that title myself.
>>>
>>> "P&S" is a category of camera, and is no more pejorative than "dslr."
>>> "Disposable" is what you allude to when you said you take it to use
>>> in conditions where you wouldn't mind if it got lost or damaged
>>> because it was inexpensive to replace.
>> The thread title obviously reflects on person's point of view, and it not
>> one I would have chosen either.
>>
>> I've tried to suggest alternative terms like "small-sensor" camera
>> elsewhere in this thread - which is perhaps a more accurate description,
>> and probably the main distinguishing characteristic.
>
> Not true, a double standard. By that logic most dSLRs are also "small
> sensor" cameras, since they have sensors much smaller than full frame 35
> mm.

Not so fast, the term "small sensor" has always been used for the sensor
size used in P&S and compact digicams, at least for half a decade.

> The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
> clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term "compact"
> cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you prefer.

Using the term "ZLR camera" for a digicam with an ultra-zoom lens and
EVF is disingenuous, because the "R" in the name implies a reflex
viewfinder.
The term was originally created by Olympus to describe their IS series
of fixed zoom lens (film) SLR cameras and they continued with the term
when they were making small-sensor (2/3" CCD) fixed zoom lens DSLR cameras.
None of the Panasonic FZ digicams have a reflex viewfinder, so they
aren't real "ZLR cameras" no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.
It would be more accurate to call them "EVF cameras" or "EVF digicams".

>> Of course, it
>> doesn't have the snappiness of P&S.
>
> Or the fun pejorative connotations. "Compact" is snappy, likewise
> "ZLR", and "fixed zoom" isn't far behind.

Many of the EVF digicams are just as bulky as the smaller bodied SLR
cameras, so the term "compact" is rather an exaggeration of how "small"
they are.

>> It seems that the term P&S has stuck,
>> even though many DSLRs also are capable of fully automated settings.
>
> More careful and objective authors use more appropriate terms.
>
> This frankly comes across as bias.

Unfortunately, none of the manufacturers of EVF cameras have come up
with anything "official" to call this class of camera.
So you can't use a "real" or "proper" name for this type of digicam,
only one that is generally agreed to and this hasn't really happened yet.

Some of the more fanatical EVF digicam users hijacked the term "ZLR
camera" and created a newsgroup rec.photo.digital.zlr.
This has since proved to be a wasted exercise, as after the initial
posting flurry (lasting a couple of months) has only had automated spam
and other cross-posted messages.

In article
<49500f1b$0$15761$>, dj_nme
<> wrote:

> > The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
> > clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term "compact"
> > cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you prefer.
>
> Using the term "ZLR camera" for a digicam with an ultra-zoom lens and
> EVF is disingenuous, because the "R" in the name implies a reflex
> viewfinder.
> The term was originally created by Olympus to describe their IS series
> of fixed zoom lens (film) SLR cameras and they continued with the term
> when they were making small-sensor (2/3" CCD) fixed zoom lens DSLR cameras.
> None of the Panasonic FZ digicams have a reflex viewfinder, so they
> aren't real "ZLR cameras" no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.
> It would be more accurate to call them "EVF cameras" or "EVF digicams".

and the panasonic g1 is considered an slr even though it lacks a
mirror. it's more like an slr than it is any other category. the
terms evolve.

some have coined the term 'evil' for 'electronic viewfinder with
interchangeable lenses', but it hasn't caught on (and hopefully stays
that way).

> Unfortunately, none of the manufacturers of EVF cameras have come up
> with anything "official" to call this class of camera.
> So you can't use a "real" or "proper" name for this type of digicam,
> only one that is generally agreed to and this hasn't really happened yet.

good point, although it seems like 'p&s' has come to mean a non-dslr.

nospam wrote:
> In article
> <49500f1b$0$15761$>, dj_nme
> <> wrote:
>
>>> The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
>>> clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term "compact"
>>> cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you prefer.
>> Using the term "ZLR camera" for a digicam with an ultra-zoom lens and
>> EVF is disingenuous, because the "R" in the name implies a reflex
>> viewfinder.
>> The term was originally created by Olympus to describe their IS series
>> of fixed zoom lens (film) SLR cameras and they continued with the term
>> when they were making small-sensor (2/3" CCD) fixed zoom lens DSLR cameras.
>> None of the Panasonic FZ digicams have a reflex viewfinder, so they
>> aren't real "ZLR cameras" no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.
>> It would be more accurate to call them "EVF cameras" or "EVF digicams".
>
> and the panasonic g1 is considered an slr even though it lacks a
> mirror. it's more like an slr than it is any other category. the
> terms evolve.

The terms do evolve but 'SLR' would be completely meaningless used for
the G1. I'd rather call it a digital rangefinder which is also wrong
<g>. The distinction is interchangeable lens and that separates it from P&S.

'Single Lens' means you looks through the taking lens which is true for
almost all digital cameras apart from compacts with an optical
viewfinder - those resemble film P&S - which resemble rangefinders in
function. The term 'Single Lens' is meaningless today unless you are
comparing to a TLR Twin Lens Reflex of the 1950's. And those weren't
interchangeable lenses AFAIK <g>.

'Reflex' is an awkward way of saying there's a mirror which flexes the
image up to your eye. 'Reflex' didn't originally mean a flip-up mirror
like an SLR but that's what we think it means; like the flipping motion
is the reflex. 'Reflex' was originally used to distinguish from view
cameras which project directly onto ground glass (upside down).


> some have coined the term 'evil' for 'electronic viewfinder with
> interchangeable lenses', but it hasn't caught on (and hopefully stays
> that way).

IL doesn't sound much better and 'interchangeable' is too long. 'Micro
4/3' is all I can think of to call it but I can't type the mu character <g>.


>> Unfortunately, none of the manufacturers of EVF cameras have come up
>> with anything "official" to call this class of camera.
>> So you can't use a "real" or "proper" name for this type of digicam,
>> only one that is generally agreed to and this hasn't really happened yet.
>
> good point, although it seems like 'p&s' has come to mean a non-dslr.

Yes P&S is an overly broad term. The main distinction is fixed lens.
'Bridge Camera' is not a bad term, I might lump micro-4/3 in there for
lack of a better term. There are a bunch of bridge concepts and even
pro-sumer models that look like a P&S with more features, the smaller
simple designs remain P&S. We can retire the D on DSLR too, film users
can use 'film SLR'.

P&S
Bridge
SLR

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam

Paul Furman wrote:
> The distinction is interchangeable lens

Well sensor size is more important but in terms of design it's the
interchangeable lens that distinguishes micro 4/3 from everything but
the Leica M8 and DSLRs.

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam

savvo wrote:
> On 2008-12-22, nospam <> wrote:
>> In article
>> <49500f1b$0$15761$>, dj_nme
>> <> wrote:
>>
>>>> The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
>>>> clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term "compact"
>>>> cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you prefer.
>>> Using the term "ZLR camera" for a digicam with an ultra-zoom lens and
>>> EVF is disingenuous, because the "R" in the name implies a reflex
>>> viewfinder.
>>> The term was originally created by Olympus to describe their IS series
>>> of fixed zoom lens (film) SLR cameras and they continued with the term
>>> when they were making small-sensor (2/3" CCD) fixed zoom lens DSLR cameras.
>>> None of the Panasonic FZ digicams have a reflex viewfinder, so they
>>> aren't real "ZLR cameras" no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.
>>> It would be more accurate to call them "EVF cameras" or "EVF digicams".
>>
>> and the panasonic g1 is considered an slr even though it lacks a
>> mirror. it's more like an slr than it is any other category. the
>> terms evolve.
>
> Not by Panasonic or, well, anyone really.

Not even Panasonic is silly enough to claim that a digicam with an EVF
has a reflex viewfinder.

> It's more like a compact because that's what it is.

Only in viewfinder type and maybe body size, unfortunately.
It would appear that lenses for mu4/3 cameras are still roughly the same
size as the full-sized 4/3 lenses.
I would challenge any-one that to put even a short zoom lens on a DMC-G1
and then fit the whole thing into a pocket would be attempting the
impossible.
Unless you've got special "trick" trousers.

John Navas wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:19:38 GMT, "David J Taylor"
> <david-> wrote
> in <ecH3l.9855$>:
>
>> Stephen Bishop wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:42:27 -0800, John Navas
>> []
>>>> The subject of the entire thread is pejorative, and your constant
>>>> use of terms like "p&s" and "disposable" is likewise pejorative.
>>>> Which is of course why you do it.
>>>
>>> I didn't create the title of the thread, but here we are. I
>>> wouldn't choose that title myself.
>>>
>>> "P&S" is a category of camera, and is no more pejorative than
>>> "dslr." "Disposable" is what you allude to when you said you take
>>> it to use in conditions where you wouldn't mind if it got lost or
>>> damaged because it was inexpensive to replace.
>>
>> The thread title obviously reflects on person's point of view, and
>> it not one I would have chosen either.
>>
>> I've tried to suggest alternative terms like "small-sensor" camera
>> elsewhere in this thread - which is perhaps a more accurate
>> description, and probably the main distinguishing characteristic.
>
> Not true, a double standard. By that logic most dSLRs are also "small
> sensor" cameras, since they have sensors much smaller than full frame
> 35 mm.
>
> The main distinguishing characteristic of cameras like the FZ8 is
> clearly the lack of interchangeable lenses. I prefer the term
> "compact" cameras, but use "ZLR" or "fixed zoom" cameras if you
> prefer.
>
>> Of course, it
>> doesn't have the snappiness of P&S.
>
> Or the fun pejorative connotations. "Compact" is snappy, likewise
> "ZLR", and "fixed zoom" isn't far behind.
>
>> It seems that the term P&S has stuck,
>> even though many DSLRs also are capable of fully automated settings.
>
> More careful and objective authors use more appropriate terms.
>
> This frankly comes across as bias.

John, there is no bias nor any intentional connotations. The responses of
others to your remarks seem to indicate that they don't think so either.
Differences between the many variants of English will probably prevent us
from coming up with a mutually agreeable term.

David