Can volatile RAM still contain evidence?

Hi:

Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
unacceptable opinions on the internet?

Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
all.

This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
thread a few of minutes ago.

Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.

My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.

While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
my speeches illegal in the future.

Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
illegaly-
arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
me.

I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.

Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
them.

That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
"purely-volatile" by my above definition.

Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
and society.

In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.

I respect the law, but I hate society.

For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
*extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
also need to be burnt.

I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
disc cache chips.

Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
-- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
there in the chip.

I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.

Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.

I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
accessing it later.


Thanks,

Radium

GreenXenon

GreenXenon wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegaly-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.
>
> I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.
>
> Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
> them.
>
> That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
> "purely-volatile" by my above definition.
>
> Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
> from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
> and society.
>
> In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
> right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.
>
> For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
> format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
> Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
> from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
> *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
> magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
> heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
> also need to be burnt.
>
> I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
> extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
> disc cache chips.
>
> Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
> -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
> the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
> down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
> are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
> At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
> constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
> there in the chip.
>
> I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.
>
> Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
> store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.
>
> I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
> NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
> can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
> PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
> example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
> accessing it later.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

At the quantum level?
What's the common med for paranoia these days?


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RobV

GreenXenon <> wrote in news:57c8e5e0-585e-40ae-809a-
:

> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off?


You are presumably reacting 10 months late to the paper:

Lest We Remember: Cold Boot Attacks on Encryption Keys
http://citp.princeton.edu/pub/coldboot.pdf

I and many others consider this paper to be sensationalist and even
somewhat dishonest, and are especially dismayed that it was thrust out in
a shameless self-promoting way without peer review. The kindest thing
that can be said for it is that, while it introduced nothing new, it
reminded people of a long-known effect, RAM remanence.

It has been known at least snce the 1970s that RAM preserves state for
some time after removal of power (RAM is, after all, essentially just
capacitors) and the the length of time before full discharge is extended
by cooling.

With that out of the way, it can be said that, for most modern RAM
memory, waiting about a minute after power off is more than sufficient to
ensure that RAM is not recoverable. (If you think you may be subject to a
no-knock raid, harden your machine with automatic shutoff and obstacles
to memory access that will take at least a minute.)

For extreme paranoids the following "double shutdown" drill removes all
doubt: Shut off the computer normally, reboot it from a CD and run a
memory zeroisation program, and then shut down for the second final time.
(If your BIOS supports a "long memory check on POST" option, then the
shutdown-reboot-shutdown-again drill does not require a CD, zeroisation
software, etc. Just shutdown-reboot with long memory test-shutdown).

For learning about additional subtleties, google is your friend.

Regards,

nemo_outis

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:02:50 +0000, Tim Jackson wrote:

> I don't want to encourage you to express anything vulgar and obscene in
> public: most of us find it perfectly possible to express our opinions
> without,

Not everything considered "vulgar" or "obscene" by authorities is also
considered as such by rest of the population.

In some places, the words "Tienanmen Square Massacre" is not just
considered vulgar and obscene by authorities, but it is a punishable
crime.

ShadowTek

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:11:57 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:

> Second question: why bother trying to extract anything
> from RAM when it's so easy to beat the passwords out of
> you? (and don't assume that governments can't come up
> with a threat that will accomplish the same thing)

Personal fav: "Talk or we kill you."
--
Meet Ari!
http://tr.im/1fa3

Ari

On Dec 22, 3:02 am, Tim Jackson <t...@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote:

> If those you have
> insulted collect their pitchforks and torches and come around as a lynch
> mob, then more power to them.

The stuff I would like to write in chat rooms are not insulting,
hurtful, or offensive -- just extremely unacceptable by societal
norms.

As individuals, no one reading the stuff I right will have any at-
heart desire to harm me. However, if they see me, then they will be
forced by society's "herd mentality" to torture me to death.

One of the evil rules of society is, if you don't mistreat a social
outcast, then you become a social outcast. So that is what would force
people to lynch me -- even though they don't want to.

At heart, the individuals reading my chats will have nothing against
me. But because what I write is so socially-unacceptable, they will
feel the need to abuse me, in order to preserve their social status.

GreenXenon

GreenXenon wrote:

> Hi:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.
>
> Even if the PC is turned-off, the chips still contain sufficient
> amount of info that can be recoverd by top-secret devils of the NSA
> and Central Security Service. Apparenty they have some devices that
> can read EXTREMELY-WEAK electric signals from volatile RAM chips and
> recover what was lost then the power was turned-off. Is this true? If
> so, how to prevent this while still expressing my socially-
> unacceptable opinions on the internet?
>
> Are there any RAM chips that are PURELY-VOLATILE and that will lose
> all info when power is lost? If so, I'm thinking of buying a PC which
> uses these chips. As soon as I turn off the comp, no info remains at
> all.
>
> This is another reason I was discussing about RAM chips in another
> thread a few of minutes ago.
>
> Please note that I do not plan to write anything illegal on the net --
> no threats, no confessions, etc. However, I would like to express my
> opinions in chat rooms w/out facing negative consequences.
>
> My opinions differ from that of the general public and I want to
> forcefully-express my vulgar, obscene, and socially-unacceptable
> opinions in chat rooms [such as Yahoo-chat, ICQ, IRC, chat-zone, and
> spin-chat] without being falsely-accused of crime.
>
> While what I would like to write in chat-rooms is not illegal, public
> pressure would force authorities to do something. Public pressure
> might also force the enactment of new unjust laws possibly rendering
> my speeches illegal in the future.
>
> Sometimes authorities are forced to arrest and imprison innocent law-
> abiding citizens because of public outrage. At heart, the authorites
> don't want to jail innocent people but they have no choice. Society,
> being the evil scum it is, will overpower the police and force them to
> illegaly imprison me. Crowds of sadistic human beings will overturn
> police cars and start harming the police, if the police don't
> illegaly-
> arrest me. Sort of like a lynch-mob mentality against the police and
> me.
>
> I need protection from this unlawful, public-forced treatment.
>
> Sometimes society and the law are on opposite ends. This is one of
> them.
>
> That is why I would like to get a PC that doesn't have any RAM that is
> "purely-volatile" by my above definition.
>
> Because I am a complete law-abiding citizen, I have nothing to hide
> from the police. However, I have everything to hide from the public
> and society.
>
> In lynch-mob situations, police are powerless to do what they know is
> right. The cops are helpless must be a slave to the evil society.
>
> I respect the law, but I hate society.
>
> For the HDD platters, even after you thoroughly delete, overwrite and
> format a gazillion times, you're still on thin ice. The NSA and
> Central Security Service have equipment they can use to recover data
> from the magnetic platters on the HDD. The equipment they use is
> *extremely* sensitive to *extremely* weak magnetic signals on the
> magnetic platters. The only way to truly get rid off the data is to
> heat the platters beyond Curie point. The cache chips in the HD might
> also need to be burnt.
>
> I am worried similar sensitive devices could be used to read the
> extremely-weak electric signals present in the volatile RAM chips and
> disc cache chips.
>
> Due to the laws of physics, I suspect that the volatile RAM info might
> -- to some extent -- exist even after the system is turned off. Sure
> the wattage of those electric signals maybe *extremely*-low after shut
> down, but that does not mean the signals are not there anymore -- they
> are just way too weak to be detected and analyzed by ordinary means.
> At the quantum level, the differences in wattage levels which
> constitute what was the original volatile RAM info will continue to be
> there in the chip.
>
> I'm hoping this is just my paranoia and not true.
>
> Also, the disc cache chips are another grave concern to me, they also
> store RAM -- just not nearly as much as the platters of the HDD.
>
> I wonder if there are any PCs for sale anywhere that are free of any
> NVRAM devices and still work. The disdvantage of this is that nothing
> can be saved. The advantage is, malware can't be planted in it. Such a
> PC could connect to the internet and store text on websites -- for
> example, I could 'save' something by emailing it to myself and then
> accessing it later.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

I think that you are being too paranoid ! You probably have more to
fear from your ISP's records of your traffic over however long they are
obliged to keep them ! Most countries now legally oblige the ISP to
record and retain them for some minimum period.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Baron

GreenXenon <> writes:

>On Dec 22, 3:02 am, Tim Jackson <t...@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote:

>> If those you have
>> insulted collect their pitchforks and torches and come around as a lynch
>> mob, then more power to them.

>The stuff I would like to write in chat rooms are not insulting,
>hurtful, or offensive -- just extremely unacceptable by societal
>norms.

???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever, and are
worried that someone may be able to read the stuff from you ram. Can you
perhaps seen something totally bizzare in this? You think maybe that chat
rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
it as yours.



>As individuals, no one reading the stuff I right will have any at-
>heart desire to harm me. However, if they see me, then they will be
>forced by society's "herd mentality" to torture me to death.

>One of the evil rules of society is, if you don't mistreat a social
>outcast, then you become a social outcast. So that is what would force
>people to lynch me -- even though they don't want to.

>At heart, the individuals reading my chats will have nothing against
>me. But because what I write is so socially-unacceptable, they will
>feel the need to abuse me, in order to preserve their social status.

You are like the Bellman (Hunting of the snark) that if you repeat it three
times it is true?

Unruh

On Dec 22, 1:21 pm, Unruh <unruh-s...@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:

> ???? You write in chat rooms where the stuff is saved forever
> You think maybe that chat
> rooms are like chatting with a friend on Hampstead Heath? It is not. Every
> bite is recorded and saved forever. You will never ever be able to disown
> it as yours.

The stuff I write maybe saved forever but...

1. None of what I would like to write is illegal

2. I can post from a wireless internet cafe and add an extra defense
of Mac-Spoofing and IP-spoofing. Right?

Each time I log on to the internet, use a different MAC address and
different IP address. MAC addresses can be cloned and emulated in
software as opposed to using the real hardware MAC address branded
into the network card.

If my laptop is NVRAM-free, cache-free and the above apply, then it
will be very difficult to identify/locate me. Right?

Also, a tempest-shield would add benefit in that those NSA/Central-
Security-Service creeps who drive around in vans scanning for leaked
radio-frequency info will have a significantly harder time oppressing
me.

Since my hypothetical laptop is cache-free and NVRAM-free, I would be
much safer from malware that would otherwise infect my laptop if it
had cache and/or NVRAM.

It would also be nice to have V-RAM chips which one can instantly
erase info without power-offing. Something with signal-multiplier and
phase-inversions. To eliminate the signal, make a copy of it, invert
the phase and then combine the copy with the original. Or, instead of
multipliers /inverters, something that can instantly attenuate the
voltage of the signal down to a perfect zero -- i.e. not a single hint
of electric potential difference -- not even at the quantum level.

GreenXenon

GreenXenon wrote:
>
> Can informating stored in volatile RAM still be recovered after the
> computer is turned off? I remember reading something on a forensics
> website that the evidence is not only on the platters of the HDD but
> also on the disk cache chips and the volatile RAM chips in the PC.

Probably not, but I won't say never. About 1975 or so I remember
buying some of the first 16k RAM chips, I believe from Electronic
Associates. They worked, were reasonably priced, but used 24 pin
DIP sockets as I remember. I found, by accident, that they would
retain their contents for something like 24 hours with all power
removed (to ensure that I removed the card from the system).

I even advised EA of this, but they just disappeared. At the time
development of an electrically rewriteable ROM would have been
valuable - the only thing available was UV erasable EPROMS. I
never took advantage of their characteristic, as I had no idea how
reliable it was, and my end use was medical instrumentation.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.

CBFalconer