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Sanny wrote:
> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?

Depends on your definition of "free".

Do you have to pay money to download and use Visual Studio Express? No.

Can you create free applications with it? Yes.

Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.

Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.

Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to
>> download?
>
> Depends on your definition of "free".
>
> Do you have to pay money to download and use Visual Studio
> Express? No.
>
> Can you create free applications with it? Yes.
>
> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.

Yes.

>
> Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.

Do you get a Porsche for free? No.


Bo Persson

On 2008-11-23 17:07, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?

> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.

Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
at my previous employer.

> Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.

What does that have to do with anything? If you download a trial-version
of any application can you upgrade to the full version for free? No.

--
Erik Wikström

Erik Wikström wrote:
>> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
>
> Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
> at my previous employer.

It's surprisingly hard to find some actual legal text from microsoft's
VS Express website confirming or denying this.

There is a paragraph in their EULA which says:

"Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
obtained from the Services."

The FAQ page for VS Express tells (in rather non-legalese, which in
this particular case is actually a bad thing because it gives no
reference to the actual details of the usage license) that you *can* use
it for commercial purposes.

Besides the EULA and the FAQ being contradictory, I can't find any
answer to the question of whether you can use it in a company for
commercial purposes, or whether the commercial usage is limited to
individuals only.

On 2008-11-24 02:20, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Erik Wikström wrote:
>>> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
>>
>> Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
>> at my previous employer.
>
> It's surprisingly hard to find some actual legal text from microsoft's
> VS Express website confirming or denying this.
>
> There is a paragraph in their EULA which says:
>
> "Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
> non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
> display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
> from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
> obtained from the Services."

This is the license for the VC++ 2008 Express software, it only applies
to that software, not any software created with it.

> The FAQ page for VS Express tells (in rather non-legalese, which in
> this particular case is actually a bad thing because it gives no
> reference to the actual details of the usage license) that you *can* use
> it for commercial purposes.
>
> Besides the EULA and the FAQ being contradictory, I can't find any
> answer to the question of whether you can use it in a company for
> commercial purposes, or whether the commercial usage is limited to
> individuals only.

The EULA does not place any restrictions (at least none that I could
find on a quick review) on the content created with the software so it
will be governed by the same laws as other things you create.

--
Erik Wikström

Erik Wikström wrote:
>> "Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
>> non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
>> display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
>> from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
>> obtained from the Services."
>
> This is the license for the VC++ 2008 Express software, it only applies
> to that software, not any software created with it.

But if you use the software to make commercial software, isn't that
commercial use of the software?

Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Erik Wikström wrote:
>>> "Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal
>>> and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute,
>>> transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create
>>> derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information,
>>> software, products or services obtained from the Services."
>>
>> This is the license for the VC++ 2008 Express software, it only
>> applies to that software, not any software created with it.
>
> But if you use the software to make commercial software, isn't that
> commercial use of the software?

No. Please check the FAQ at
http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/

Especially question 7

a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
Visual Studio Express Editions.



Bo Persson

Bo Persson wrote:
> No. Please check the FAQ at
> http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/
>
> Especially question 7
>
> a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
> Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
> Visual Studio Express Editions.

I know. It's just that the wording is a bit ambiguous. "Can I use".
Does it mean "can I use it, as an individual, to create commercial
software", or does it also include "can my 100-employee company use it
for commercial purposes" as well?

I would really like to find the legal usage license which explicitly
states, in completely unambiguous words, how this goes, rather than
relying on a short informal answer in a FAQ. I just can't find it.

Juha Nieminen wrote:
> Bo Persson wrote:
>> No. Please check the FAQ at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/
>>
>> Especially question 7
>>
>> a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
>> Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built
>> using Visual Studio Express Editions.
>
> I know. It's just that the wording is a bit ambiguous. "Can I use".
> Does it mean "can I use it, as an individual, to create commercial
> software", or does it also include "can my 100-employee company use
> it for commercial purposes" as well?
>
> I would really like to find the legal usage license which
> explicitly states, in completely unambiguous words, how this goes,
> rather than relying on a short informal answer in a FAQ. I just
> can't find it.

I think the "no licensing restrictions" is pretty clear.

Otherwise you might consider spending ?200 on a Standard Edition
Upgrade instead, as a cheap insurance. Cheaper than having your lawyer
read the EULA!


Bo Persson

"Bo Persson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Juha Nieminen wrote:
>> Bo Persson wrote:
>>> No. Please check the FAQ at
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/
>>>
>>> Especially question 7
>>>
>>> a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
>>> Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built
>>> using Visual Studio Express Editions.
>>
>> I know. It's just that the wording is a bit ambiguous. "Can I use".
>> Does it mean "can I use it, as an individual, to create commercial
>> software", or does it also include "can my 100-employee company use
>> it for commercial purposes" as well?
>>
>> I would really like to find the legal usage license which
>> explicitly states, in completely unambiguous words, how this goes,
>> rather than relying on a short informal answer in a FAQ. I just
>> can't find it.
>
> I think the "no licensing restrictions" is pretty clear.
>
> Otherwise you might consider spending ?200 on a Standard Edition Upgrade
> instead, as a cheap insurance. Cheaper than having your lawyer read the
> EULA!

Well, AFAICT, the answer to question 7:




Q: 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?

A: Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
Visual Studio Express Editions.




directly addresses a __single__ person; not a plurality of persons. Perhaps
the following question might get a different answer:




7. Can I, and all of my companies employees, use the Express Editions to
explicitly create closed-source proprietary commercial software which may,
or may not, involve my companies patented algorihtms?





:^/