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Re: Tables versus divsions

 
 
Chaddy2222
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      09-17-2008
On Sep 17, 6:19*pm, richard <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> http://1littleworld.com/table101.html
>
> Some time ago I had posted on my website a little diddy to show
> someone how using divisions could work just the same as a table.
>
> As I noted that my stats were showing some hits every now and then I
> decided to dress it up a bit. This time showing how to create a table
> appearance using not only divisions, but unordered list as well.

That is rather pointless. If the data your wanting to show is ment to
be a table, then a table is the best solution.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
 
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Sherm Pendley
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      09-17-2008
richard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Yes tables tags have their places and uses, but would it be better to
> use divisions? Depends on the presentation.


HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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Sherm Pendley
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      09-17-2008
richard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:00:28 -0400, Sherm Pendley
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>richard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> Yes tables tags have their places and uses, but would it be better to
>>> use divisions? Depends on the presentation.

>>
>>HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
>>reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?

>
> Of course, but newbees want to do things the easiest way possible.
> One of the first lessons is how to create a table so that's what they
> know and use constantly.


Abusing table elements for layout may be a common newbie mistake, but
abusing divs to mark up tabular data is just as much so. The fact hat
a lot of them make the same mistake doesn't make it right.

> When CSS came around and more new things were added, a whole new world
> of adventure opened it. I recall huge sites like MSN.com and
> downloads.com that were totally designed in tables. Once designers
> learned the new tricks, the old was forgotten.


Do you use a gibberish generator to write your comments? None of this
has one damn thing to do with what I said.

Whether to use a div or a table has *nothing* to do with presentation;
HTML is not about presentation. Which element to use depends on the
semantic meaning of the text being marked up, not with how you want
that text to look.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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Ari Heino
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      09-17-2008
>> HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
>> reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?
>>
>> sherm--

>
> Of course, but newbees want to do things the easiest way possible.
> One of the first lessons is how to create a table so that's what they
> know and use constantly.


And should use when presenting tabular data.

> When CSS came around and more new things were added, a whole new world
> of adventure opened it. I recall huge sites like MSN.com and
> downloads.com that were totally designed in tables. Once designers
> learned the new tricks, the old was forgotten.


You missed Sherm's point about semantics totally and so did the guys at
MSN etc. back then. Tables were _never_ meant for layout. They're
designed for tabular data.

Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
and see what happens.

--
Ari
http://users.utu.fi/athein/
 
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Sherm Pendley
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      09-17-2008
richard <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> If html is not about presentation, then WTF do you use?


CSS. HTML marks up what the text *is*, and CSS suggests how it should
*look*.

> I have seen other sites do the same demo. I only presented a table
> like affair just to compare with.


Bad example, then. Your "table like affair" is just that - a grid of
tabular data for which a table element *would* be appropriate. If you
mean to demonstrate how to use divs for page layout, then you should
use an example that uses them for... wait for it... page layout.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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dorayme
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      09-17-2008
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Sherm Pendley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> HTML is not about presentation.


Many people know or think they know what you mean. I would rather say it
is not about *nice styling*.

In the ordinary meaning of presentation - let us confine things to the
visual for the moment but everything I say applies to sound and touch
too - HTML is essentially about presentation. Its heart and soul is
presentation and nothing else at all. If you turn off all author
stylesheets you are left with one thing only, a basic presentation. You
are not left with some primordial soup.

The whole idea of the semantics of HTML elements as far as a browser is
concerned is to know how to present the material at least in a basic
form. It is all about presentation. It is not about something mysterious
called meaning. It is about presenting visual patterns in a form that by
custom and practice is known to readers. When a reader sees a short bold
bigger than the rest line of text, he immediately knows here is
something that is a clue to the text below.

Yes, it is a heading! Humans understand wha a heading is, what it does
when properly applied. But a heading is not some mysterious semantic
object that somehow speaks for itself no matter what the hell it "looks
like". How it looks is absolutely part of its nature and the very thing
that the browser is concerned to produce and the human to recognise. The
human does recognises the presentation, the look. It and it alone is the
clue.

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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      09-17-2008
In article <garnd7$1vfv$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Ari Heino <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
> like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
> and see what happens.


I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
tabular data in non *HTML table* form. A bolt is so fusey that it is not
a fuse at all, it is more like a man who is hard wired to suffer
premature ejaculation rather than one who is merely not as good as
Anthony or Casanova or Don Juan.

--
dorayme
 
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rf
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      09-18-2008

"dorayme" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> In article <garnd7$1vfv$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Ari Heino <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
>> like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
>> and see what happens.


I would say more like replacing a fuse with a peice of string. A fuse and a
peice of string are designed for totally different purposes.

> I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
> tabular data in non *HTML table* form.


And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer a
table.

Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.

When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.


 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      09-18-2008
richard wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:53:06 GMT, "rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "dorayme" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> In article <garnd7$1vfv$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> Ari Heino <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
>>>> like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
>>>> and see what happens.

>> I would say more like replacing a fuse with a peice of string. A fuse and a
>> peice of string are designed for totally different purposes.
>>
>>> I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
>>> tabular data in non *HTML table* form.

>> And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer a
>> table.
>>
>> Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.
>>
>> When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
>> scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.
>>

>
> That's only because I don't expect people to have 100px wide screens.
> I should have that fixed in the next version.
>


No but they may have only a few hundred with their cell.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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rf
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      09-18-2008

"richard" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:53:06 GMT, "rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>>And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer
>>a
>>table.
>>
>>Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.
>>
>>When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
>>scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.
>>

>
> That's only because I don't expect people to have 100px wide screens.
> I should have that fixed in the next version.



The "example" you posted was only 100px or so wide. My real-world bus
timetable is wider than that. Your table replacement does not work with my
bus timetable.


 
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