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Motherboards with onboard video: any of them remotely decent?

 
 
Squiggle
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      09-13-2008
As per the topic, are any of the boards with onboard video decent?

Looking at finally retiring the P4 for a C2D or AMD 64x2 system, but
money is a little tight, can't afford a new box and a good video card in
one hit. So trying to decide between a board with on-board video, or
just a <$100 pci-E card to get me thru till I have the $$$ available for
a real video card. Current system is AGP & DDR so only carry over parts
will be the SATA drives.

Main reason for upgrading is that the curent system doesn't like working
with 400 part CAD assemblies, and next year I may end up running a lot
of FEA and CFD simulations for uni projects.
 
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~misfit~
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      09-13-2008
Somewhere on teh intarweb "Squiggle" typed:
> As per the topic, are any of the boards with onboard video decent?
>
> Looking at finally retiring the P4 for a C2D or AMD 64x2 system, but
> money is a little tight, can't afford a new box and a good video card
> in one hit. So trying to decide between a board with on-board video,
> or just a <$100 pci-E card to get me thru till I have the $$$
> available for a real video card. Current system is AGP & DDR so only
> carry over parts will be the SATA drives.
>
> Main reason for upgrading is that the curent system doesn't like
> working with 400 part CAD assemblies, and next year I may end up
> running a lot of FEA and CFD simulations for uni projects.


Hi,

I can't give you specifics about boards but it's my experience that
integrated mobos tend to be compromises and to not have very good video
anyway. (Although I've been hearing about 'upcoming' good quality integrated
video solutions for a while now but haven't seen any reviewed..)

I would suggest (without having done research on this) that you get a good
mobo and the cheapest PCIe graphics card you can find, then upgrade the card
when you can afford it. That way you won't be wishing you had a better mobo
in a year or two.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...


 
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Richard
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      09-13-2008
Squiggle wrote:
> As per the topic, are any of the boards with onboard video decent?
>
> Looking at finally retiring the P4 for a C2D or AMD 64x2 system, but
> money is a little tight, can't afford a new box and a good video card in
> one hit. So trying to decide between a board with on-board video, or
> just a <$100 pci-E card to get me thru till I have the $$$ available for
> a real video card. Current system is AGP & DDR so only carry over parts
> will be the SATA drives.
>
> Main reason for upgrading is that the curent system doesn't like working
> with 400 part CAD assemblies, and next year I may end up running a lot
> of FEA and CFD simulations for uni projects.


For cad you would probably be better looking for a quadro or firegl in
the longterm so onboard should suffice for now.

I have no issues with solidworks on my 780g board with 80-90 parts, how
it would scale I have no idea.

The parts are all stupidly simple things like a cylander with raduised
ends and flat plates, only a couple of weird lofts and rotated solids.
 
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Squiggle
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008
Richard wrote:
> Squiggle wrote:
>> As per the topic, are any of the boards with onboard video decent?
>>
>> Looking at finally retiring the P4 for a C2D or AMD 64x2 system, but
>> money is a little tight, can't afford a new box and a good video card in
>> one hit. So trying to decide between a board with on-board video, or
>> just a <$100 pci-E card to get me thru till I have the $$$ available for
>> a real video card. Current system is AGP & DDR so only carry over parts
>> will be the SATA drives.
>>
>> Main reason for upgrading is that the curent system doesn't like working
>> with 400 part CAD assemblies, and next year I may end up running a lot
>> of FEA and CFD simulations for uni projects.

>
> For cad you would probably be better looking for a quadro or firegl in
> the longterm so onboard should suffice for now.
>
> I have no issues with solidworks on my 780g board with 80-90 parts, how
> it would scale I have no idea.
>
> The parts are all stupidly simple things like a cylander with raduised
> ends and flat plates, only a couple of weird lofts and rotated solids.


re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards do
that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a third
the price.

And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards. eg
http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539

Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.
 
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Richard
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      09-13-2008
Squiggle wrote:

> re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards do
> that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
> command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
> the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
> everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a third
> the price.
>
> And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
> geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards. eg
> http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
>
> Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
> firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.


Yeah, you can softmod some of them but the difference is they can do all
the stuff needed to accelerate the lines in the view and some other
stuff, its just not enabled in the gaming cards despite the chip
normally having the parts fully functional in them, Its like enabling
the additional pipelines by a softmod, some cards will do it, some wont.
When I tried it mine didnt and I got visual crap allover the screen when
doing cad.

Having the instruciont makes solidworks and some others have bling mode
work where things have textures and stuff so they look a lot nicer
without having to render them.
 
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Squiggle
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008
Richard wrote:
> Squiggle wrote:
>
>> re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards do
>> that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
>> command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
>> the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
>> everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a third
>> the price.
>>
>> And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
>> geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards. eg
>> http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
>>
>> Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
>> firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.

>
> Yeah, you can softmod some of them but the difference is they can do all
> the stuff needed to accelerate the lines in the view and some other
> stuff, its just not enabled in the gaming cards despite the chip
> normally having the parts fully functional in them, Its like enabling
> the additional pipelines by a softmod, some cards will do it, some wont.
> When I tried it mine didnt and I got visual crap allover the screen when
> doing cad.
>
> Having the instruciont makes solidworks and some others have bling mode
> work where things have textures and stuff so they look a lot nicer
> without having to render them.


Hmm, might have to take my chances with a softmod, the prices of the
workstation cards are bloody ridiculous, and I don't need anti-alaising
or fancy lighting, I just need to move lines and vertices around at a
reasonable pace.
 
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Gordon
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008
On 2008-09-13, Squiggle <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>> Squiggle wrote:
>>
>>> re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards do
>>> that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
>>> command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
>>> the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
>>> everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a third
>>> the price.
>>>
>>> And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
>>> geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards. eg
>>> http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
>>>
>>> Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
>>> firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.

>>
>> Yeah, you can softmod some of them but the difference is they can do all
>> the stuff needed to accelerate the lines in the view and some other
>> stuff, its just not enabled in the gaming cards despite the chip
>> normally having the parts fully functional in them, Its like enabling
>> the additional pipelines by a softmod, some cards will do it, some wont.
>> When I tried it mine didnt and I got visual crap allover the screen when
>> doing cad.
>>
>> Having the instruciont makes solidworks and some others have bling mode
>> work where things have textures and stuff so they look a lot nicer
>> without having to render them.

>
> Hmm, might have to take my chances with a softmod, the prices of the
> workstation cards are bloody ridiculous, and I don't need anti-alaising
> or fancy lighting, I just need to move lines and vertices around at a
> reasonable pace.


So you are not interested in many frames per second then? Think of it this
way, in a game on ones PC the pixels change fast as the monitor and graphics
card allow.

 
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Squiggle
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008
Gordon wrote:
> On 2008-09-13, Squiggle <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Richard wrote:
>>> Squiggle wrote:
>>>
>>>> re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards do
>>>> that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
>>>> command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
>>>> the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
>>>> everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a third
>>>> the price.
>>>>
>>>> And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
>>>> geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards. eg
>>>> http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
>>>> firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.
>>> Yeah, you can softmod some of them but the difference is they can do all
>>> the stuff needed to accelerate the lines in the view and some other
>>> stuff, its just not enabled in the gaming cards despite the chip
>>> normally having the parts fully functional in them, Its like enabling
>>> the additional pipelines by a softmod, some cards will do it, some wont.
>>> When I tried it mine didnt and I got visual crap allover the screen when
>>> doing cad.
>>>
>>> Having the instruciont makes solidworks and some others have bling mode
>>> work where things have textures and stuff so they look a lot nicer
>>> without having to render them.

>> Hmm, might have to take my chances with a softmod, the prices of the
>> workstation cards are bloody ridiculous, and I don't need anti-alaising
>> or fancy lighting, I just need to move lines and vertices around at a
>> reasonable pace.

>
> So you are not interested in many frames per second then? Think of it this
> way, in a game on ones PC the pixels change fast as the monitor and graphics
> card allow.
>


anything over 10 fps is bearable for rotating a CAD model, and if a
softmod can turn a $500 geforce 8800gtx into a $3600 Quadro fx 4600
clone, then i'm sure to be happy with that. why waste the extra $3K. and
if it fails i'm sure that the 8800 will rotate it just fine in the first
place. If a radeon 9600 is only just driving me nuts now, I cant see how
a card 4 generations or more newer would cause me to rip my hair out.
 
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impossible
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008

"Squiggle" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:48cb8db4$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Gordon wrote:
>> On 2008-09-13, Squiggle <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> Richard wrote:
>>>> Squiggle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> re your comment about the quadro/firegl cards.. what do thses cards
>>>>> do
>>>>> that is so freaking fantastic to justify the outrageous prices they
>>>>> command? comparing the specs on something like an 8800GTS and one of
>>>>> the quadro cards a while ago it seemed that the 8800 GTS had more of
>>>>> everything (onboard ram, memory bandwidth, pipelines) for about a
>>>>> third
>>>>> the price.
>>>>>
>>>>> And a bit of googling now turns up results that indicate some of the
>>>>> geforce series can be "soft-modded" into the equivalent quadro cards.
>>>>> eg
>>>>> http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=539
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to me like its more of a marketing scam driven by minor
>>>>> firmware/driver changes than any real difference in the hardware.
>>>> Yeah, you can softmod some of them but the difference is they can do
>>>> all
>>>> the stuff needed to accelerate the lines in the view and some other
>>>> stuff, its just not enabled in the gaming cards despite the chip
>>>> normally having the parts fully functional in them, Its like enabling
>>>> the additional pipelines by a softmod, some cards will do it, some
>>>> wont.
>>>> When I tried it mine didnt and I got visual crap allover the screen
>>>> when
>>>> doing cad.
>>>>
>>>> Having the instruciont makes solidworks and some others have bling mode
>>>> work where things have textures and stuff so they look a lot nicer
>>>> without having to render them.
>>> Hmm, might have to take my chances with a softmod, the prices of the
>>> workstation cards are bloody ridiculous, and I don't need anti-alaising
>>> or fancy lighting, I just need to move lines and vertices around at a
>>> reasonable pace.

>>
>> So you are not interested in many frames per second then? Think of it
>> this
>> way, in a game on ones PC the pixels change fast as the monitor and
>> graphics
>> card allow.
>>

>
> anything over 10 fps is bearable for rotating a CAD model, and if a
> softmod can turn a $500 geforce 8800gtx into a $3600 Quadro fx 4600
> clone, then i'm sure to be happy with that. why waste the extra $3K. and
> if it fails i'm sure that the 8800 will rotate it just fine in the first
> place. If a radeon 9600 is only just driving me nuts now, I cant see how
> a card 4 generations or more newer would cause me to rip my hair out.


Agreed. And 8800 GT's, which perform nearly as well as GTX's can be had for
**much** less. Still, for your purposes right now, I think your first
instinct is the best. For 2D CAD, the better integrated graphics chips (like
the x3100) will do the job just fine. For 3D rendering, dedicated cards will
provide a big improvement in performance, but there's really no need to go
climbing the gpu ladder for that unless (a) you do a lot of 3D rendering and
(b) you really can't spare a few extra minutes -- and of course you can
always upgrade down the road as your needs change.

 
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Squiggle
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-13-2008
thingy wrote:
> Squiggle wrote:
>> As per the topic, are any of the boards with onboard video decent?
>>
>> Looking at finally retiring the P4 for a C2D or AMD 64x2 system, but
>> money is a little tight, can't afford a new box and a good video card in
>> one hit. So trying to decide between a board with on-board video, or
>> just a <$100 pci-E card to get me thru till I have the $$$ available for
>> a real video card. Current system is AGP & DDR so only carry over parts
>> will be the SATA drives.
>>
>> Main reason for upgrading is that the curent system doesn't like working
>> with 400 part CAD assemblies, and next year I may end up running a lot
>> of FEA and CFD simulations for uni projects.

>
>
> Hi,
>
> OK....you have provided us some detail here to work with....what you are
> going to be running (CAD etc) suggests a quad core CPU and an Intel one
> appears to be the way to go as Intel CPUs do better in this area I
> believe. You will also probably be loading large files on and off disk
> so good sata performance, and since its your Uni work, I'd raid1 the
> disks and backup to DVD/USB sticks (I have a 2gb one inside my PC just
> for that)...The intel 10R series of onboard chipsets are the best for
> speed and raid IMHO...
>
> Lots RAM is going to be a must....this will depend on your OS, but I'd
> look for a motherboard supporting 8Gb but start with 2 x 2GB of DDR2-800...
>
> So if you get a basic $120 motherboard its going to be limited in
> several areas, it might only have 2 sata channels, its PCI-e slot might
> be 16 way physically but the cheap ones are 8 way electrically...and its
> sata performance will be cwap....
>
> So this is pushing us to look at the $200~$250 mark for motherboards IMHO.
>
> I would suggest looking at a good motherbaord such as Asus and Gigabyte,
> with 4+ sata channels and capable of 8GB ram support....You could go
> AMD but to be honest I would not unless money really is an issue......if
> you were doing general desktop work with games yes....when you look at
> rendering and CAD then from what I have seen Intel seems the better
> performer, you will also have more chance for better CPUs as Intel has a
> higher performance range though at high cost.....
>
> But first, I would go look at what the vendor of your CAD program
> recommends for CPU and Ram but also do independant research to confirm,
> as these days its not un-usual for companies like Intel etc to offer
> backhanders to others to push their CPUs...
>
> You may also need to consider dual booting a 32bit of your OS and a
> 64bit one...I would not be surprised if the need for lots of Ram will
> dictate that you will need 64bit. 400+ CAD assemblies suggests a lot of
> RAM.
>
> You dont list what sort of Video card but for "real" CAD work, games
> video cards are not the best, you should really look at the workstation
> versions again research is needed here as there maybe special extra
> drivers from the video card vendor and/or CAD vendor to make a better
> match....even for the games cards...
>
> Next point is both Nvidia and ATI are talking about using the on-board
> video on top of the dedicated video card for a performance boost, this
> seem to be happening now, so look for motherboards with this feature.
> This will lock you into one video card vendor though...
>
> So if money is tight, I'd get a middle range motherbaord in the $250
> range with an onboard 7100 or 8100 series class video...if you have the
> money 2 x 2 Gb of ram or say 2 x 1GB stick, DDR2 is fone unless DDR3 is
> little more.
>
> Other things to consider is if you need to move large files between home
> and uni an external e-sata/fw/usb2 drive like the seagate ones..in
> e-sata mode you will get a high speed transfer, so a motherbaord with an
> e-sata port seems a good idea.



> regards
>
> Thing
>


Thanks for the suggestions, but quad cores, workstation graphics cards,
8GB Ram and $250 motherboards on a student budget is somewhat...
unrealistic.
 
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