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Looking for that special Java IDE...

 
 
Mike Schilling
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      08-31-2008
Marcio wrote:
> hm well but that does not invalidate my argument, that is, an IDE
> written in JAVA is still slower than another written in C++


Well, let's see. You said that Java is always slower than C++ because
it's interpreted. I pointed out that Java run in modern JVMs is not
necessarily interpreted. Call me crazy, but I think that your
argument has been invalidated.


 
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Arved Sandstrom
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      08-31-2008
"Peter Duniho" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:10:17 -0700, Mike Schilling
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>>> I admit, not having used it myself, I can't defend or critique it. I
>>> just know it's in broad usage, which just doesn't happen to things
>>> that are completely useless.

>>
>> Never used Windows?

>
> No matter how many times I see that joke, it never becomes unpredictable
> or funny.
>
>> Actually, my disdain for NetBeans goes back to the versions from 2001
>> or so. I have heard that it's improved.

>
> I'm sure Eclipse wasn't all that great at v1.0 either. I think only
> someone who's used NetBeans recently can vouch for its quality (or lack
> thereof).
>
> Pete


And for the OP, I'd just say go out and test drive both. I use NetBeans 6.1
now for most of my own development, with an occasional foray into Eclipse
Europa. I have no reason to believe that I couldn't use either for almost
all of my stuff - I'm just more used to NetBeans now.

The main points I myself would make are that IDEs should be tweaked, all of
them will struggle some with the latest features, both IDE itself and the
technologies you are developing in (which invariably is what you end up
using them with ), and you can tie all of them up in knots if you don't
learn their idiosyncracies.

As an example of idiosyncracies (and this includes M$ VS IDEs too), no IDE
out there loves certain radical and rapid changes in the source code of a
visually-designed thing. I've managed to make NetBeans choke when changing
the JSP source for a Visual Web JSF page, more than once, but then so have I
made Visual C# Express choke when aggressively changing the XAML in a WPF
app. You learn to become gentle...

For sheer frustration I direct the OP to IBM RAD. I truly hate code
synchronization in that thing. Can't blame that on its Eclipse core, I don't
think.

AHS


 
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David Segall
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      08-31-2008
Marcio <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Hey guys!!
>I was once a good Java programmer but... well, it's been like 10 years
>now
>So now I am looking for a good IDE which could be fast, tutorial and
>full of resources
>I am currently trying JCreator because it is written in C (I can't
>stand IDE's written in Java...). But I just noticed that JCreator has
>no WYSIWYG capabilities for Frames and stuff
>SO I ask you guys: which IDE am I looking for??
>That is: one who is fast (preferably written in C) and has WYSIWYG
>capabilities???

I have what I believe to be a complete list of candidates at
<http://ide.profectus.com.au>. Both Eclipse and NetBeans are written
in Java. I would be surprised if the only two remaining candidates,
JDeveloper and IntelliJ IDEA, were not written in Java but I don't
know.
 
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Jeff Higgins
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      08-31-2008

Marcio wrote:
> ok guys, I know it would sound weird that a Java programmer wants to
> avoid a Java IDE, but if you think about it that is just the perfect
> reason to avoid it heehee... that is, a programmer knows that the
> drawback of an interpreted language is its low speed, and so wouldn't
> it be natural that he would want to avoid doubling this drawback (that
> is, in the IDE execution PLUS the drawbacks in debugging a JAVA
> software)??
> So, I really think that building a JAVA IDE in C (or whatever can be
> as fast) is a good idea, although you won't be able to develop in
> other OS's... but for my case, I plan to develop under Windows only so
> no problem about that.
> Anywayz, so maybe we can shift focus to the following:
>
> - What are the JAVA IDEs written in C (with GUI building or not)?


Anywayz, X/GNU Emacs, write your own GUI builder. heehee...


> - Which is more lightweight: Eclipse or NetBeans?
>
> You know, I'm the lightweight kinda guy (I use winamp lite for
> instance, heehee...) and I have this 3.2mhz >Celeron< machine with
> 750mb or RAM... It goes pretty well with the constant tuning I give
> it, but I got really MAD when I tried IntelliJ and I had this little
> delay before the IDE menus (swing I think) would open and all...
>
> I tried JBuilder in the past and - oh my!
> Maybe I should just take some Yoga training to work my patience a
> bit
>
> tia
> marcio
>
> On 30 ago, 22:25, "Peter Duniho" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:00:53 -0700, Marcio <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > [...]
>> > I am currently trying JCreator because it is written in C (I can't
>> > stand IDE's written in Java...). But I just noticed that JCreator has
>> > no WYSIWYG capabilities for Frames and stuff
>> > SO I ask you guys: which IDE am I looking for??
>> > That is: one who is fast (preferably written in C) and has WYSIWYG
>> > capabilities???

>>
>> I think your prejudice against IDEs written in Java is unfounded. I use
>> Eclipse and it nearly always works great for me (very, VERY rarely I find
>> myself waiting on it...it even has a "this operation timed out" error
>> message...and I don't know what that's all about, but it's not a bug that
>> shows up often enough for me to worry about it).
>>
>> My understanding is that NetBeans is also written in Java, and lots of
>> people swear by it.
>>
>> And frankly, I find it odd that someone wanting to write Java code would
>> be prejudiced against applications written in Java. That seems
>> so...well...wrong.
>>
>> So: I recommend that rather than refusing to use an IDE just because it's
>> written in Java, check out what Eclipse and NetBeans have to offer. As
>> near as I can tell, they are the mainstream IDEs, which mean they will
>> have the best user support, best update schedule, and best reliability
>> (speaking for Eclipse, I can say that except for that one very rare issue
>> I mentioned, it works perfectly all the time).
>>
>> If you have checked out Eclipse and NetBeans both and have found them
>> unsuitable, then your request for suggestions should not only state that,
>> but also should include very specific details as to _why_ you don't like
>> Eclipse or NetBeans so that people suggesting alternatives can provide
>> more useful information.
>>
>> Pete

>


 
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Arne Vajh°j
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      08-31-2008
Marcio wrote:
> On 30 ago, 23:11, "Mike Schilling" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>> Marcio wrote:
>>> ok guys, I know it would sound weird that a Java programmer wants to
>>> avoid a Java IDE, but if you think about it that is just the perfect
>>> reason to avoid it heehee... that is, a programmer knows that the
>>> drawback of an interpreted language is its low speed,

>> Only one who's not familiar with modern JVMs, which are neither
>> stricrtly interpreted nor low speed.

> hm well but that does not invalidate my argument, that is, an IDE
> written in JAVA is still slower than another written in C++


It averts all your seizures.

Whether the nightmare is lush or not is another question.

But the byte complexity versus immutable motherland will not make it undercover.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"When we have settled the land,
all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be
to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."

--- Raphael Eitan,
Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces,
New York Times, 14 April 1983.

 
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Arne Vajh°j
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      08-31-2008
Marcio wrote:
> ok guys, I know it would sound weird that a Java programmer wants to
> avoid a Java IDE, but if you think about it that is just the perfect
> reason to avoid it heehee... that is, a programmer knows that the
> drawback of an interpreted language is its low speed,


A Board grocer would know that Lord is not interpreted and has not
been since anytime back in the 1990's.

Arne


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"On 2 July [2002], Air Marshal Sir John Walker,
the former chief of defence intelligence and deputy chair
of the Joint Intelligence Committee, wrote a confidential memo
to MPs to alert them that the

"commitment to war" was made a year ago.

"Thereafter," he wrote, "the whole process of reason, other reason,
yet other reason, humanitarian, morality, regime change, terrorism,
finally imminent WMD attack . . . was merely covering fire."

 
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Arne Vajh├Şj
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      08-31-2008
Lew wrote:
> Christian wrote:
>> Marcio schrieb:
>>> hm well but that does not invalidate my argument, that is, an IDE
>>> written in JAVA is still slower than another written in C++

>>
>> Yes espeicaially on startup..
>>
>> Java has the disadvantage that loading (+ reading + decompressing...)
>> the classfiles eclipse has tons of these takes time.
>> some massive block of c++ code should there perform much better.

>
> When I'm working on a Java project, it's for more than ten minutes per
> IDE session. Startup time of the IDE is under one minute for any IDE
> I've used. Startup time of the IDE couldn't be more utterly irrelevant.


Objectively that is correct.

Subjectively those seconds can feel like forever.

Arne

Arne
 
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Tom Anderson
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      08-31-2008
On Sat, 30 Aug 2008, Marcio wrote:

> ok guys, I know it would sound weird that a Java programmer wants to
> avoid a Java IDE, but if you think about it that is just the perfect
> reason to avoid it heehee... that is, a programmer knows that the
> drawback of an interpreted language is its low speed, and so wouldn't it
> be natural that he would want to avoid doubling this drawback (that is,
> in the IDE execution PLUS the drawbacks in debugging a JAVA software)??


I think if you think java is interpreted, you're not a java programmer,
since you evidently know rather little about it.

> - Which is more lightweight: Eclipse or NetBeans?
>
> You know, I'm the lightweight kinda guy (I use winamp lite for instance,
> heehee...) and I have this 3.2mhz >Celeron< machine with 750mb or RAM...
> It goes pretty well with the constant tuning I give it, but I got really
> MAD when I tried IntelliJ and I had this little delay before the IDE
> menus (swing I think) would open and all...


I recommend you don't try Eclipse. Eclipse is lovely, but it's big. Really
big. Western Samoan big. I installed it on a machine with a few other
IDEs, and when i came back, it had eaten them.

tom

--
IMPORTANCE MEMO: >>> WHEN YOU BUY AN N-GAGE QD <<< PLEASE, please CONTINUE
TO TALK ON THE SIDE!!$ Note: the other party will not be able to hear you,
BUT WHO REALLY CRAPS A THING, SIDETALKIN' 2009++!!!
 
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Roedy Green
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      09-01-2008
On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT), Marcio
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>I am currently trying JCreator because it is written in C


IIRC it is possible to compile Eclipse under Jet. Eventually you
will be able to get a Jet-compiled version of IntelliJ too.
--

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
 
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Daniele Futtorovic
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      09-01-2008
On 01/09/2008 01:31, Tom Anderson allegedly wrote:
> I recommend you don't try Eclipse. Eclipse is lovely, but it's big.
> Really big. Western Samoan big. I installed it on a machine with a few
> other IDEs, and when i came back, it had eaten them.


Never leave your goat unattended.

--
DF.
 
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