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Validator program

 
 
Sherm Pendley
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      08-25-2008
"Albert Wiersch" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> At no time did I ever claim that CSE HTML Validator's own validation
> engine was a DTD based validator.


That's exactly what you claim, when you call it a validator.

> Therefore, I strongly recommend that you stop
> calling people liars


I will when you stop lying.

> especially when you have no proof.


The proof is the name of your fraudulent product.

> I know you have no
> proof because I know I never said that CSE HTML Validator's own
> engine was a DTD based validator.


If it's not DTD based, it's not a validator. It's a lint checker.

sherm--

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Sherm Pendley
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      08-25-2008
jACK <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Because I've always kept it simple I think is the reason I've been
> able to use CSE. Ok, maybe it's not as high class as I need, but
> till now, I didn't even known the difference. It does what I need,
> who cares.


I think you're still missing the point a bit. It's not about "class,"
or about whether CSE performs a useful function or not. It's about
truth in advertising - I don't like the fact that CSE was originally
advertised as something that it was not.

Even considering that the "pro" version now has a validator, Albert's
own honesty is still in question. He didn't add the validator until he
was forced to do so, to live up to his claims about his product. Do
you want to do business with someone who's only honest when he has no
other choice? I don't.

There are plenty of good tools out there - you don't need to support
dishonest people to lint-check or validate your site.

sherm--

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My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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Harlan Messinger
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      08-25-2008
Albert Wiersch wrote:
> "Neredbojias" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:Xns9B051314CE564neredbojiasnano@194.177.96.78 ...
>> The "what works in the real world" might be most of the fly in the
>> ointment.
>> If ie6 renders some non-standard thing "correctly" from its perspective,
>> is
>> this "valid" (-for ie6, that is)? What supposedly works in the real world
>> may (or may not) be pragmatically correct, but that does not make it
>> intrinsically correct and a validator must be unbiased. The only way
>> markup
>> can be valid is if the organization in authority over it says its valid,
>> Microsoft notwithstanding.

>
> Most people want their HTML to display well in real-world browsers and that
> is the main purpose of CSE HTML Validator.
>
> When "non-standard" constructs are used, CSE HTML Validator will notify the
> developer. The developer can choose to use it anyway or can change the
> message to an error message and decide not to use it. CSE HTML Validator
> leaves it up to the developer to decide how they want their site to be.
>
> What good is a standard if it's not followed in the real world? What good is
> a web page that is designed to the standards if it doesn't work in
> real-world browsers? CSE HTML Validator tries to let developers know about
> issues such as these:
>
> 1. Constructs that work in the real-world but are not standards compliant.
> 2. Standards compliant constructs that don't work with real-world browsers.
>
> Again, the developer gets to choose how to handle these issues with regards
> to accepting them anyway or removing them.


I'm amazed by how many times you've offered responses like these to
objections that no one has raised, while ignoring the fact that none of
this has anything to do whatsoever with what the technical term
"validator" means, the objection that *has* been raised.
 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      08-25-2008
Albert Wiersch wrote:

> What good is a standard if it's not followed in the real world?



Why bother having stands, eh?

> What good is
> a web page that is designed to the standards if it doesn't work in
> real-world browsers? CSE HTML Validator tries to let developers know about
> issues such as these:
>
> 1. Constructs that work in the real-world but are not standards compliant.


Because *those* constructs are as subject to change at the whim of the
browser author and your page may be break in the future[1] (We are
talking about MSIE right?)

> 2. Standards compliant constructs that don't work with real-world browsers.
>


Again, we are talking about MSIE right?

New flash Albert: MS is supposedly pushing towards getting IE 8
standards compliant. Whether they are successful on not for IE 8, (they
may get it right for 9, 10 or 11), but the point is your "real world
validation" only prolongs the bad practice of using proprietary
constructs instead of striving to be standards compliant. It give the
ignorant the false sense of security that their pages are properly
constructed and that is the real harm of your product.


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
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http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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Harlan Messinger
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      08-25-2008
Albert Wiersch wrote:
> "Harlan Messinger" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> I'm amazed by how many times you've offered responses like these to
>> objections that no one has raised, while ignoring the fact that none of
>> this has anything to do whatsoever with what the technical term
>> "validator" means, the objection that *has* been raised.

>
> I've addressed that objection multiple times. I don't see the need to
> continually repeat it in every message.


What's the point of repeating information that *doesn't* address the
objection every time the objection is mentioned?

Your responses that do address the objection that's been raised haven't
done anything to undermine that objection.
 
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Harlan Messinger
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      08-25-2008
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-08-25, Albert Wiersch <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> "Jonathan N. Little" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:4c45d$48b2cbf7$40cba7cd$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> New flash Albert: MS is supposedly pushing towards getting IE 8 standards
>>> compliant. Whether they are successful on not for IE 8, (they may get it
>>> right for 9, 10 or 11), but the point is your "real world validation" only
>>> prolongs the bad practice of using proprietary constructs instead of
>>> striving to be standards compliant. It give the ignorant the false sense
>>> of security that their pages are properly constructed and that is the real
>>> harm of your product.

>> How can it give the developer the sense that it is properly constructed when
>> CSE HTML Validator tells the developer that it is not standard?
>>
>> There are pros and cons of non-standard constructs.

>
> What are the pros? Can you provide some actual examples of non-standard
> constructs that you would advise using?


The use of the <wbr> tag has sometimes been recommended here.
 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      08-25-2008
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-08-25, Albert Wiersch <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>>
>> There are pros and cons of non-standard constructs.

>
> What are the pros? Can you provide some actual examples of non-standard
> constructs that you would advise using?


The "pros" are reflected in his bank account other than that there
is not any advantage to a real web developer that wishes for his page to
work both for today and tomorrow.

BTW, if done properly a page can be standards compliant, not be support
by IE but still be usable in IE by properly degrading... Then when|if MS
gets their act together the page will display constantly among all
browsers...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
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http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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Sherm Pendley
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      08-25-2008
jACK <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> I don't know what your problem is with Albert and I don't care.


I told you what my problem with him is - he's dishonest. You don't
care about truth in advertising?

> Your name is going to the same place Guy put mine. In the kill
> file.


Whatever. If you'd rather hear dishonest sales pitches than accurate
technical info, that's your loss. Am I supposed to feel bad about it
or something?

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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Sherm Pendley
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      08-25-2008
Andy Dingley <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Do us a favour Jack, stick mine in there too. We'll have a party.


W00t! I'll bring the Guinness, and then we can argue with the Bud
drinkers about what the word "beer" really means.

sherm--

--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
 
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Jonathan N. Little
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      08-25-2008
Sherm Pendley wrote:

> W00t! I'll bring the Guinness, and then we can argue with the Bud
> drinkers about what the word "beer" really means.


Guinness vs Bud? Com 'on! Except for washing grease off of engine parts
who would actually drink a Bud?

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 
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