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lid wrote:
> I find this D700 unexciting.
>
> A new full-frame camera needs to have the same pixel density
> as the common crop-frame ones, say a minimum of 9 megapixels for
> a 1.6 crop camera, 12 being optimal.

That's exactly what you don't want. The big advantage of the full frame
sensor is the ability to have larger pixels for lower noise. It took
Nikon a long time to understand the benefits of full frame (of course
I'm being facetious, they understood the benefits but until they came
out with a full frame model they were constantly whining about how
unnecessary full frame actually was).

In any case, the D90 (or whatever the successor to the D80 will be
called) will be what my relative waits for. The D80 is okay, but has too
many negatives for her.

Matt Ion wrote:

> The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
> heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
> be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
> comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
> $1000 that matches all her criteria.

Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
probably have a lot of substance.

> While the ability to borrow friends' lenses is nice, I'd say it's more
> important that she find a camera that is easy and comfortable FOR HER to
> use, and above all else, that means narrowing the choice down to three
> or four models, then actually going in to the store and playing with
> each of them. Check the handling, check the menu navigation, check the
> balance... she wants a camera that she'll ENJOY working with, that's not
> confusing to configure, that's not uncomfortable to operate.
>
> I gave this same advice to two friends who were shopping for DSLRs
> recently... one ended up with a D80 (I did also tell him he should get a
> Canon, specifically so I could borrow his lenses, but he didn't listen
> to that part), the other with a Pentax *ist, their choices based largely
> on the "comfort" criteria.

Pentax or Olympus or Sony isn't going to happen for one big reason, and
that's that she needs to be able to rent or borrow high-end zoom lenses
on occasion (for sports tournaments one of her kids is in).

You're probably right about the XSi, but the Canon entry-level models
just feel so cheaply made, but maybe it's just perception.

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 08:49:56 -0700, SMS <>
wrote:

> I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
>40D with 12 megapixels and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since
>the 40D came out, and price it at around $1000,...

The Canon EOS 50D will be announced in the spring of 2009.

Archibald

In article <5dyak.6673$>, SMS
<> wrote:

> That's exactly what you don't want. The big advantage of the full frame
> sensor is the ability to have larger pixels for lower noise. It took
> Nikon a long time to understand the benefits of full frame (of course
> I'm being facetious, they understood the benefits but until they came
> out with a full frame model they were constantly whining about how
> unnecessary full frame actually was).

they weren't constantly whining at all. they simply said that it
wasn't cost effective to produce one at the time, and they'd revisit
the decision when it was.

however, *users* constantly whined about it.

In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
<> wrote:

> Matt Ion wrote:
>
> > The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
> > heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
> > be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
> > comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
> > $1000 that matches all her criteria.
>
> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
> probably have a lot of substance.

lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias. the d40/d40x/d60/d80
are very good cameras, and nikon sales in that segment reflect that,
gaining market share over canon.

nospam wrote:
> In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
> <> wrote:
>
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
>>> heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
>>> be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
>>> comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
>>> $1000 that matches all her criteria.
>> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
>> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
>> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
>> probably have a lot of substance.
>
> lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.

And a pro-Nikon bias is better?

NO bias is going to help this discussion. The simple fact is, there's
only one DSLR currently on the market that actually fits ALL of the
listed criteria, and that's the XSi. For this particular shopper,
therefore, Nikon is lagging.

SMS wrote:
> My sister-in-law finally has given up on P&S due to their shutter lag.
> She asked me for help in choosing a D-SLR with the following criteria:
>
> No-Compromise
>
> 1. <= $1000 for body
> 2. Minimum of 10 megapixels
> 3. Not too heavy (800 grams or less)
> 4. Wireless remote
> 5. CMOS sensor (she doesn't really care about the sensor type, but
> needs low noise at high-ISO)
>
> Preferred
>
> 1. Live View (I know, only a few models have this)
> 2. 3" LCD
> 3. 12 megapixels
>
> I suggested the D80, but she didn't like the reviews that talk about
> the noise levels at high ISO, and it has none of her "preferred"
> criteria.
>
> The only thing I could find that comes close is the Canon Rebel XSi,
An excellent camera. About the same image quality as the 40D.
> which is about $725. I'm really uneasy about the consumer grade Canon
> models though. I was hoping that Canon would release an upgrade to the
> 40D with 12 megapixels
You will not see the difference between 10 and 12. I read that the 40D
does a little better on noise than the XSI.
> and LiveView soon since it's almost a year since the 40D came out, and
> price it at around $1000, or that Nikon would upgrade the D80 with a
> 12 megapixel sensor, 3" LCD, and live view, kind of a lower end D300
> (which I guess they wouldn't want to do because it might hurt D300
> sales).
>
> She doesn't have any lenses, so she's not committed to any particular
> system, but she would prefer Nikon, because she has nearby friends
> that she can borrow lenses from when needed. Unfortunately, Nikon's
> offerings in the sub-$1000 price range are not very good.
>
> I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
> with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
> range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
> nothing between the D80 and the D300.

In article <g4eh8p$n04$>, Matt Ion
<> wrote:

> >> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
> >> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
> >> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
> >> probably have a lot of substance.
> >
> > lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.
>
> And a pro-Nikon bias is better?

how about no bias? he has a history of slagging anything other than
canon.

> NO bias is going to help this discussion.

exactly my point.

> The simple fact is, there's
> only one DSLR currently on the market that actually fits ALL of the
> listed criteria, and that's the XSi. For this particular shopper,
> therefore, Nikon is lagging.

he didn't say nikon lagged *for her*, but that nikon can't possibly
contnue to lag so badly behind canon. in reality, sales of under $1k
nikon cameras have been very strong. nikon isn't lagging.

In message news:Lmsak.674$, SMS
<> done wrote:

> I saw the Nikon D700 announcement, but I wonder if Nikon will come up
> with some consumer models in the sub-$1000 (preferably sub-$800) price
> range that compete with Canon's offerings in that range. They now have
> nothing between the D80 and the D300.

The D200 is on Nikon's website as a current model. It is "between the D80
and the D300".

nospam wrote:
> In article <Zhyak.6674$>, SMS
> <> wrote:
>
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> The XSi actually fits ALL of her criteria quite nicely. The 40D is
>>> heavier than her "required" weight, and I would expect any successor to
>>> be heavier as well, and definitely over the budget. In fact, using the
>>> comparison chart at www.dpreview.com, the XSi is the ONLY model under
>>> $1000 that matches all her criteria.
>> Yes, this is true. But I think she'll wait and see how the D80 successor
>> looks before making a decision. Nikon can't possibly continue to lag so
>> badly behind Canon in the sub-$1000 segment, and the rumors about a 90D
>> probably have a lot of substance.
>
> lag so badly? that's just your anti-nikon bias.

Hey, I'm the one that told her not to rush out and get the XSi even
though it met all of her criteria, and to wait to see what Nikon comes
out with.

> the d40/d40x/d60/d80
> are very good cameras, and nikon sales in that segment reflect that,
> gaining market share over canon.

Yes some of those are good. I'd steer clear of the D40/D40x, but nothing
wrong with the D60 or D80, they just aren't as good as what Canon has in
those segments.

Yes, Nikon is gaining market share, though they still lag behind Canon
in D-SLR sales.