Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Programming > Python > Books for learning how to write "big" programs

Reply
Thread Tools

Books for learning how to write "big" programs

 
 
duli
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-22-2008
Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

Most of the code I have written and books that I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
..net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

Thanks!
Duli.


 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Kurt Smith
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-22-2008
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Hi:
> I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
> necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
> a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
> definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
> or application.


The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. Anyone
who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
his time working on the next phase of the project itself.

Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
But I'll be surprised.

>
> Most of the code I have written and books that I have read deal with
> toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
> comprehensive. For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
> for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
> .net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
> things I am interested in learning).


It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
him to write a book about it.

Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.

The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
you and that is open source. Download its source, and read the code.
Diagram it. Map it out. Read the comments. Join the mailing list
(probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
about why they organized things the way they did. Get the overall big
picture and learn from it. Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
found and avoided (or fell into). Compare their approach &
organization with another competing project. This is the wonder of
open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.

You can learn the basics from books, but nothing beats analyzing a
species in the wild.

Kurt
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Dan Upton
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-22-2008
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Kurt Smith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Hi:
>> I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
>> necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
>> a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
>> definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
>> or application.

>
> The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
> documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
> the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
> dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
> design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. Anyone
> who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
> his time working on the next phase of the project itself.
>
> Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
> exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
> But I'll be surprised.
>


Well, except for some higher-level textbooks. For instance, I *think*
(not positive) that any of Appel's "Modern Compiler Implementation"
books give a pretty thorough treatment of implementing a compiler
(except for the obvious part where, since it's intended as a textbook,
some gaps are left for the student to fill in). I also think the
recent edition of the Dragon book (Compilers: Principles, Techniques,
and Tools 2nd ed) has a complete compiler frontend in one of the
appendices (although you kind of have to mix and match to figure out
where in the book they've described the parts that lead to writing out
the code shown in the appendix).

-dan
 
Reply With Quote
 
Simon Brunning
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-23-2008
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 4:55 PM, duli <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Hi:
> I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
> necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
> a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
> definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
> or application.


With regard to the arcitecture of systems rather than process, there
are some good boos liked to from here:
<http://martinfowler.com/articles/enterprisePatterns.html>. Patterns
of Enterprise Application Architecture in particular is a bit of a
classic.

--
Cheers,
Simon B.
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/
GTalk: simon.brunning | MSN: small_values | Yahoo: smallvalues | Twitter: brunns
 
Reply With Quote
 
mabbikeel
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      05-27-2008
On May 27, 9:58*pm, c james <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> duli wrote:
> > Hi:
> > I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
> > necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
> > a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
> > definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
> > or application.


I'm not sure, but perhaps Code Complete would be one to check out. I
found it a good read on general design and implementation details, and
has some bits on managing complexity.

 
Reply With Quote
 
s0suk3@gmail.com
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-05-2008
On May 22, 12:49*pm, "Kurt Smith" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > Hi:
> > I would like recommendations forbooks(in any language, not
> > necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
> > a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
> > definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
> > or application.

>
> The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
> documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
> the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
> dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
> design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. *Anyone
> who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
> his time working on the next phase of the project itself.
>
> Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
> exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
> But I'll be surprised.
>
>
>
> > Most of the code I have written andbooksthat I have read deal with
> > toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
> > comprehensive. *For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
> > for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
> > .net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
> > things I am interested in learning).

>
> It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
> they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
> A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
> of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
> him to write a book about it.
>
> Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
> You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
> any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.
>
> The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
> scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
> you and that is open source. *Download its source, and read the code.
> Diagram it. *Map it out. *Read the comments. *Join the mailing list
> (probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
> about why they organized things the way they did. *Get the overall big
> picture and learn from it. *Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
> found and avoided (or fell into). *Compare their approach &
> organization with another competing project. *This is the wonder of
> open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
> from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.
>
> You can learn the basics frombooks, but nothing beats analyzing a
> species in the wild.


I think I have lately understood what you mean, thanks to Programming
Python 3rd Ed by Lutz. It doesn't teach Python itself -- the book aims
to teach Python programming at an application level, but I'm starting
to wonder whether that knowledge can be obtained from any book. The
book goes through over 1500 pages (!) giving small- and medium-sized
example programs and describing their details. Roughly after a couple
of hundred pages I started to feel like all that was trivial (isn't
looking at code and figuring their details what we do in our every-day
programmer lifes?), and then started to feel like it was really
useless. Maybe large-scale programming can only be self-thought in
every day life, am I right?.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Bob Martin
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-06-2008
in 69148 20080605 140635 (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>On May 22, 12:49=A0pm, "Kurt Smith" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> > Hi:
>> > I would like recommendations forbooks(in any language, not
>> > necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
>> > a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
>> > definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
>> > or application.

>>
>> The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
>> documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
>> the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
>> dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
>> design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. =A0Anyone
>> who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
>> his time working on the next phase of the project itself.
>>
>> Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
>> exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
>> But I'll be surprised.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Most of the code I have written andbooksthat I have read deal with
>> > toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
>> > comprehensive. =A0For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
>> > for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
>> > .net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
>> > things I am interested in learning).

>>
>> It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
>> they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
>> A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
>> of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
>> him to write a book about it.
>>
>> Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
>> You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
>> any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.
>>
>> The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
>> scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
>> you and that is open source. =A0Download its source, and read the code.
>> Diagram it. =A0Map it out. =A0Read the comments. =A0Join the mailing list
>> (probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
>> about why they organized things the way they did. =A0Get the overall big
>> picture and learn from it. =A0Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
>> found and avoided (or fell into). =A0Compare their approach &
>> organization with another competing project. =A0This is the wonder of
>> open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
>> from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.
>>
>> You can learn the basics frombooks, but nothing beats analyzing a
>> species in the wild.

>
>I think I have lately understood what you mean, thanks to Programming
>Python 3rd Ed by Lutz. It doesn't teach Python itself -- the book aims
>to teach Python programming at an application level, but I'm starting
>to wonder whether that knowledge can be obtained from any book. The
>book goes through over 1500 pages (!) giving small- and medium-sized
>example programs and describing their details. Roughly after a couple
>of hundred pages I started to feel like all that was trivial (isn't
>looking at code and figuring their details what we do in our every-day
>programmer lifes?), and then started to feel like it was really
>useless. Maybe large-scale programming can only be self-thought in
>every day life, am I right?.


Of course.
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re: How include a large array? Edward A. Falk C Programming 1 04-04-2013 08:07 PM
Books for learning how to write "big" programs duli C++ 25 06-05-2008 02:16 PM
Books for learning how to write "big" programs duli C Programming 26 06-05-2008 02:16 PM
Books, books, books: best reference texts for Verilog and VHDL HDL Book Seller VHDL 0 12-01-2004 02:26 AM
Books, Books, Books... C++ 3 09-19-2004 10:11 PM



Advertisments