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convert a table to a <div> controlled layout

 
 
Jim S
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      05-22-2008
On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:35:57 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:

> Jim S schrieb:
>> Forgot the page (blushes)
>>
>>> Here's one I made and you may see that the buttons look daft up there.
>>> Well I think they do <g>

>>
>> Oops here it is http://www.jimscot.pwp.blueyonder.co...s_page_QE2.htm

>
> nice, here is an example, why I "like" <div>.
>
> http://www.dslr-fotografie.eu/test.php
>
> The buttons are inside the cyan box, but are not rendered
> inside the cyan box. (FF and Opera)
>
> At the moment, I use float or position the <div> layout doesn't know
> anything about "inside" another <div>. The outer div doesn't grow
> with the inner div.
>
> With width and height I can force many div-layouts to look right.
> A table looks automatically right, always.
>
> Holger


I am not sure whether you are FOR divs or AGAINST them.

More and more I get the feeling that we are arguing about the number of
angels dancing on the head of a pin or whether the apostrophe goes before
or after the "s".
Much as I would love a horse, I get to work faster by car (petrol price
apart) and I can make a page that validates and has lots of pictures , text
and links without putting divs in divs. I don't even use nested tables
(well not very often) . My only table is defined by a stylesheet, so what's
the fuss?
--
Jim S
Tyneside UK
www.jimscott.co.uk
 
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Holger Suhr
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-22-2008
Jim S schrieb:
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:35:57 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:
>
>> Jim S schrieb:
>>> Forgot the page (blushes)
>>>
>>>> Here's one I made and you may see that the buttons look daft up there.
>>>> Well I think they do <g>
>>> Oops here it is http://www.jimscot.pwp.blueyonder.co...s_page_QE2.htm

>> nice, here is an example, why I "like" <div>.
>>
>> http://www.dslr-fotografie.eu/test.php
>>
>> The buttons are inside the cyan box, but are not rendered
>> inside the cyan box. (FF and Opera)
>>
>> At the moment, I use float or position the <div> layout doesn't know
>> anything about "inside" another <div>. The outer div doesn't grow
>> with the inner div.
>>
>> With width and height I can force many div-layouts to look right.
>> A table looks automatically right, always.
>>
>> Holger

>
> I am not sure whether you are FOR divs or AGAINST them.


I tried to do a tableless layout
(yes, because tableless is in/good/the only)
and got many problems like this simple one.

So I'm wondering about the all the recommendations of tableless layouts.
Again and again I get situations, where the div-layout breaks and
I have to fuzzle to get the look, a table shows me out of the box.

>
> More and more I get the feeling that we are arguing about the number of
> angels dancing on the head of a pin or whether the apostrophe goes before
> or after the "s".
> Much as I would love a horse, I get to work faster by car (petrol price
> apart) and I can make a page that validates and has lots of pictures , text
> and links without putting divs in divs. I don't even use nested tables
> (well not very often) . My only table is defined by a stylesheet, so what's
> the fuss?


Now, I don't like to try a tableless layout anymore.
I use a mix of both and it works fine.

Holger
 
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Jim S
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      05-22-2008
On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:16:39 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:

> Jim S schrieb:
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:35:57 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:
>>
>>> Jim S schrieb:
>>>> Forgot the page (blushes)
>>>>
>>>>> Here's one I made and you may see that the buttons look daft up there.
>>>>> Well I think they do <g>
>>>> Oops here it is http://www.jimscot.pwp.blueyonder.co...s_page_QE2.htm
>>> nice, here is an example, why I "like" <div>.
>>>
>>> http://www.dslr-fotografie.eu/test.php
>>>
>>> The buttons are inside the cyan box, but are not rendered
>>> inside the cyan box. (FF and Opera)
>>>
>>> At the moment, I use float or position the <div> layout doesn't know
>>> anything about "inside" another <div>. The outer div doesn't grow
>>> with the inner div.
>>>
>>> With width and height I can force many div-layouts to look right.
>>> A table looks automatically right, always.
>>>
>>> Holger

>>
>> I am not sure whether you are FOR divs or AGAINST them.

>
> I tried to do a tableless layout
> (yes, because tableless is in/good/the only)
> and got many problems like this simple one.
>
> So I'm wondering about the all the recommendations of tableless layouts.
> Again and again I get situations, where the div-layout breaks and
> I have to fuzzle to get the look, a table shows me out of the box.
>
>>
>> More and more I get the feeling that we are arguing about the number of
>> angels dancing on the head of a pin or whether the apostrophe goes before
>> or after the "s".
>> Much as I would love a horse, I get to work faster by car (petrol price
>> apart) and I can make a page that validates and has lots of pictures , text
>> and links without putting divs in divs. I don't even use nested tables
>> (well not very often) . My only table is defined by a stylesheet, so what's
>> the fuss?

>
> Now, I don't like to try a tableless layout anymore.
> I use a mix of both and it works fine.
>
> Holger


How did you do those buttons?
--
Jim S
Tyneside UK
www.jimscott.co.uk
 
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Holger Suhr
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      05-22-2008
Jim S schrieb:
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:16:39 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:
>
>> Jim S schrieb:
>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:35:57 +0200, Holger Suhr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim S schrieb:
>>>>> Forgot the page (blushes)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's one I made and you may see that the buttons look daft up there.
>>>>>> Well I think they do <g>
>>>>> Oops here it is http://www.jimscot.pwp.blueyonder.co...s_page_QE2.htm
>>>> nice, here is an example, why I "like" <div>.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dslr-fotografie.eu/test.php
>>>>
>>>> The buttons are inside the cyan box, but are not rendered
>>>> inside the cyan box. (FF and Opera)
>>>>
>>>> At the moment, I use float or position the <div> layout doesn't know
>>>> anything about "inside" another <div>. The outer div doesn't grow
>>>> with the inner div.
>>>>
>>>> With width and height I can force many div-layouts to look right.
>>>> A table looks automatically right, always.
>>>>
>>>> Holger
>>> I am not sure whether you are FOR divs or AGAINST them.

>> I tried to do a tableless layout
>> (yes, because tableless is in/good/the only)
>> and got many problems like this simple one.
>>
>> So I'm wondering about the all the recommendations of tableless layouts.
>> Again and again I get situations, where the div-layout breaks and
>> I have to fuzzle to get the look, a table shows me out of the box.
>>
>>> More and more I get the feeling that we are arguing about the number of
>>> angels dancing on the head of a pin or whether the apostrophe goes before
>>> or after the "s".
>>> Much as I would love a horse, I get to work faster by car (petrol price
>>> apart) and I can make a page that validates and has lots of pictures , text
>>> and links without putting divs in divs. I don't even use nested tables
>>> (well not very often) . My only table is defined by a stylesheet, so what's
>>> the fuss?

>> Now, I don't like to try a tableless layout anymore.
>> I use a mix of both and it works fine.
>>
>> Holger

>
> How did you do those buttons?


Oh, I don't like to tell it....

<div id='buttline'>
...left-button..
...right-button..
</div>

and then.....

buttline {
height:30px;
}

Urgs.....

Holger
 
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Jim S
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      05-22-2008
On Thu, 22 May 2008 16:39:37 -0500, Ben C wrote:

> On 2008-05-22, Gus Richter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Holger Suhr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dslr-fotografie.eu/test.php
>>>>>
>>>>> The buttons are inside the cyan box, but are not rendered
>>>>> inside the cyan box. (FF and Opera)

> [...]
>> Another note regarding the buttons two paragraphs up:
>> You may say to yourself, "wait a minute, he said that the buttons are
>> out of the normal flow, and indeed they are outside of the cyan box
>> (.lftbox), but they are clearly inside #lft which height is added onto
>> that of #lft ". This is so, since the float presents no height (due to
>> being out of the normal flow) to its immediate parent, but its height is
>> presented to the next parent up (next nested box up).

>
> In this case because the next container up (the grandparent) is a float,
> and a float is a block formatting context, which means its height does
> take into account any floats which are descendents of it.


And this is better than using a table because...?
--
Jim S
Tyneside UK
www.jimscott.co.uk
 
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dorayme
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-23-2008
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Gus Richter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Jim S wrote:


> > And this is better than using a table because...?

>
> Read as much as you want re. "table layout versus css layout" and then
> decide:
> <http://www.google.ca/search?q=table+...=utf-8&oe=utf-
> 8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a>


All this reading will not convince Jim on what he wants to know
immediately. Why this particular placing of buttons is easier without
tables. And he will not find this out because it isn't easier on his
skills.

The advantages of more structural HTML mark up and CSS for presentation
appear from a 'whole practice' perspective and this is something hard to
implement without having a real go over a longish time.

Once Jim has made a site, he probably has never had to face redesign. If
he had to do this a lot, then the theoretical advantages of a no-tables
based layouts would sing to him more.

Some people are convinced by mere theory and argument, others by their
own needs and skills and practice.

A great deal of time is spent in the arguments against table layouts on
things that often simply do not loom large for sensible and practical
people:

* Making picture sites accessible to mobile phones, screen readers...

* Responding and satisfying a client in double quick time when he tells
you that the 2,000 page website that took you a year to develop and
launch now should be given a quite different look. Not just colours, not
just fonts, but everything on the left should go on the right and
everything on the right should go on the left and everything on the top
should go on the bottom and everything on the bottom should go on the
top and everything in the middle should go in fifty other places. And to
delete and add tons of new stuff. Does not happen to most website makers
in the real world.

* Tables are said to be a nightmare to maintain. At least a sensible
designer still using tables for layout is unlikely to be nesting them.
The meaning of "sensible" has not yet evolved to make it a contradiction
to say a sensible person might use a table for layout without nesting.
And without nesting or using spacer gifs and other absurdly complicated
techniques that would have made a Ptolemic astronomer using epicyles
proud, they are not hard to maintain or change.

* Tables based layouts take longer to load on client machines. I am sure
the differences in the case of Jim's website pages will leave him
gasping like a young petrol head who sees a Chev Corvette burning off a
a baby Austin.

* Scare stories about the difficulties of making a site look consistent
with tables.

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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Posts: n/a
 
      05-23-2008
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Gus Richter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> dorayme wrote:
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> > Gus Richter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> Jim S wrote:

> >
> >>> And this is better than using a table because...?
> >> Read as much as you want re. "table layout versus css layout" and then
> >> decide:
> >> <http://www.google.ca/search?q=table+...&ie=utf-8&oe=u
> >> tf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a>

>
> I had to correct the URL immediately above since you persist in using
> that inferior mail/news reader which breaks the URL. You really should
> give Thunderbird a go, at least for news.
>


Never occurred to me to do anything about your url. Nothing I said
depended on it in detail. But I am conscious, since your intervention a
while back, about my own urls. Have you not noticed?

....
> > A great deal of time is spent in the arguments against table layouts on
> > things that often simply do not loom large for sensible and practical
> > people:
> >

....
>
> I don't want to try to persuade anyone of anything. I will point at what
> others have to say, such as yourself, who do a marvelous job of it. If
> they choose to ignore voices of experience it's really up to them. If
> someone presents a problem and I note that table layout is used, I
> usually try to ignore the posting, unless interesting in some fashion.
> There are others that usually pass by and advise to change to css
> layout. I find it akin, at times, to arguing with religious fanatics or
> drunks, which should also be avoided. Let them use table layout if they
> insist, but they shouldn't expect anyone to help by wading through their
> nested tables and assist in css problems therein which may or may not be
> properly supported in all browsers.


I agree that is way beyond the call of duty to wade through nested
tables to help someone. And I was not criticising you at all. Your
advice to Jim was excellent. To study the issue.

My points were about the hysterical arguments against tables and about
learning difficult skills and having big rather than narrow perspectives.

--
dorayme
 
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dorayme
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      05-23-2008
In article
<(E-Mail Removed)>,
dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> My points were about the hysterical arguments against tables and about
> learning difficult skills and having big rather than narrow perspectives.


Let me give Jim and others a short explanation of the sort of
perspective that is needed to convince a socially conscious human to
move to structural mark up and css instead of tables.

Suppose what is almost unarguably the case: that dispensing with tables
generally reduces the file size of what has to be delivered to client
machines. Now multiply this by the number of visitors to all the sites
that use tables mark-up unnecessarily for presentational purposes. It
comes to an enormous amount. This amount translates into money, into
human frustration, into energy cost and into the cost of doing business
at the expense, ultimately, of more productive human achievement.

I have complained about the hysterical nature of many of the arguments
against the use of tables for markup. They are often exactly this when
considered on a small scale: maintaining this tiny website with a few
pics, maintaining that one with a few pages of info, upgrading another
one with some new pics and material and a bit of jiggling the tables
about. There is *no big problem* with tables here if you are competent
with tables, in spite of all the crap you get from the priests about the
evils.

The problems come out when you consider larger numbers: large websites,
many numbers of websites, large effects across the web community. To be
impressed by this enough to act on it needs an ethical attitude and a
desire to make for a better world.

--
dorayme
 
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Travis Newbury
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      05-23-2008
On May 23, 5:47 am, dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Suppose what is almost unarguably the case: that dispensing with tables
> generally reduces the file size of what has to be delivered to client
> machines. Now multiply this by the number of visitors to all the sites
> that use tables mark-up unnecessarily for presentational purposes. It
> comes to an enormous amount. This amount translates into money, into
> human frustration, into energy cost and into the cost of doing business
> at the expense, ultimately, of more productive human achievement.


If your host charges you that much money that coding with divs or
tables makes a monitary impact on your company, then you need a new
provider.

> To be
> impressed by this enough to act on it needs an ethical attitude and a
> desire to make for a better world.


I too philosophize about the ethical attitude and creating a better
world with the web when partaking of the herb.
 
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dorayme
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      05-23-2008
In article
<(E-Mail Removed)>,
Travis Newbury <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> On May 23, 5:47 am, dorayme <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > Suppose what is almost unarguably the case: that dispensing with tables
> > generally reduces the file size of what has to be delivered to client
> > machines. Now multiply this by the number of visitors to all the sites
> > that use tables mark-up unnecessarily for presentational purposes. It
> > comes to an enormous amount. This amount translates into money, into
> > human frustration, into energy cost and into the cost of doing business
> > at the expense, ultimately, of more productive human achievement.

>
> If your host charges you that much money that coding with divs or
> tables makes a monitary impact on your company, then you need a new
> provider.
>


That shows how completely you have misunderstood me.

> > To be
> > impressed by this enough to act on it needs an ethical attitude and a
> > desire to make for a better world.

>
> I too philosophize about the ethical attitude and creating a better
> world with the web when partaking of the herb.


That's because you are a low down little prick that needs drugs to even
get a glimpse of what it might mean to be a man.

--
dorayme
 
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