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Mirror lock up

 
 
Alfred Molon
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      03-17-2008
It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
exposures?
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
 
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Ilya Zakharevich
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      03-17-2008
[A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
Alfred Molon
<(E-Mail Removed)>], who wrote in article <(E-Mail Removed)>:
> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
> exposures?


Did you try 2-sec self-timer?

Hope this helps,
Ilya
 
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Dudley Hanks
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-17-2008

"Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
> exposures?
> --
>
> Alfred Molon
> ------------------------------
> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site


From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
shake.

I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams open
just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I think that
would be a rather rare case.

The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as fast as
the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.

Good Luck,
Dudley


 
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Alfred Molon
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-17-2008
In article <frmnq1$2naq$(E-Mail Removed)>, Ilya Zakharevich says...

> Did you try 2-sec self-timer?


I don't have the A350 (yet). What does this self-timer do?
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
 
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frederick
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-17-2008
Dudley Hanks wrote:
> "Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
>> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
>> exposures?
>> --
>>
>> Alfred Molon
>> ------------------------------
>> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
>> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

>
> From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
> exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
> shake.
>
> I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams open
> just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I think that
> would be a rather rare case.
>
> The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
> multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as fast as
> the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.
>
> Good Luck,
> Dudley
>

I disagree with that.
Between about 1/60th of a second and 1/2 second exposure, mirror-slap
when the camera used on a tripod _is_ a significant effect. A self
timer doesn't solve the problem.
Progressively with longer exposures than that, and the effect doesn't
show (the shaking subsides quickly).
How bad the effect is,and at which shutter speeds it really matters
depends on lens, tripod etc. With a longer lens, I'd expect that all
other things being equal, the camera/lens would shake longer than with a
light/short lens. I have been using a D70 (also with no MLU) for macro,
and in natural light, sod's law seems to determine that most of the time
you're in the critical zone where it's a real problem. I was using a
105mm lens, unfortunately with no tripod ring. I had better success
with no tripod, but using a bean-bag to cradle the lens - apparently
damping the mirror slap better than a tripod.
Using a D80, with shutter release delay (still no full MLU), was a huge
improvement. Full MLU is a further improvement.
 
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Dudley Hanks
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-17-2008

"frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1205792974.829092@ftpsrv1...
> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>> "Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
>>> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
>>> exposures?
>>> --
>>>
>>> Alfred Molon
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
>>> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

>>
>> From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
>> exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
>> shake.
>>
>> I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams open
>> just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I think that
>> would be a rather rare case.
>>
>> The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
>> multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as fast
>> as the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.
>>
>> Good Luck,
>> Dudley
>>

> I disagree with that.
> Between about 1/60th of a second and 1/2 second exposure, mirror-slap when
> the camera used on a tripod _is_ a significant effect. A self timer
> doesn't solve the problem.
> Progressively with longer exposures than that, and the effect doesn't show
> (the shaking subsides quickly).
> How bad the effect is,and at which shutter speeds it really matters
> depends on lens, tripod etc. With a longer lens, I'd expect that all other
> things being equal, the camera/lens would shake longer than with a
> light/short lens. I have been using a D70 (also with no MLU) for macro,
> and in natural light, sod's law seems to determine that most of the time
> you're in the critical zone where it's a real problem. I was using a
> 105mm lens, unfortunately with no tripod ring. I had better success with
> no tripod, but using a bean-bag to cradle the lens - apparently damping
> the mirror slap better than a tripod.
> Using a D80, with shutter release delay (still no full MLU), was a huge
> improvement. Full MLU is a further improvement.


Well, I've hand-held many a shot in the 1/60 to 1/15 range, even 1/8 once
and a while, and vibration from mirror slap was never a problem. Ditto for
tripod shots.

Of course, I used Canon equipment...

Further, it seems to me that longer telephotos are normally heavier, so they
should be impacted less by mirror vibrations. -- unless your mount was
really loose and the camera was free to move independant of the lens.

Perhaps that is a Nikon issue as well.

As soon as VR / IS comes into play, this should be a non issue since that is
exactly the range where this system works best, and most modern digital SLRs
at least have an optional shake reduction system available.e. Or, doesn't
Nikon's work in that range?

Smile,
Dudley


 
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frederick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-18-2008
Dudley Hanks wrote:
> "frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:1205792974.829092@ftpsrv1...
>> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>>> "Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>>> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why - I
>>>> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
>>>> exposures?
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Alfred Molon
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
>>>> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
>>> From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
>>> exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
>>> shake.
>>>
>>> I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams open
>>> just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I think that
>>> would be a rather rare case.
>>>
>>> The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
>>> multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as fast
>>> as the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.
>>>
>>> Good Luck,
>>> Dudley
>>>

>> I disagree with that.
>> Between about 1/60th of a second and 1/2 second exposure, mirror-slap when
>> the camera used on a tripod _is_ a significant effect. A self timer
>> doesn't solve the problem.
>> Progressively with longer exposures than that, and the effect doesn't show
>> (the shaking subsides quickly).
>> How bad the effect is,and at which shutter speeds it really matters
>> depends on lens, tripod etc. With a longer lens, I'd expect that all other
>> things being equal, the camera/lens would shake longer than with a
>> light/short lens. I have been using a D70 (also with no MLU) for macro,
>> and in natural light, sod's law seems to determine that most of the time
>> you're in the critical zone where it's a real problem. I was using a
>> 105mm lens, unfortunately with no tripod ring. I had better success with
>> no tripod, but using a bean-bag to cradle the lens - apparently damping
>> the mirror slap better than a tripod.
>> Using a D80, with shutter release delay (still no full MLU), was a huge
>> improvement. Full MLU is a further improvement.

>
> Well, I've hand-held many a shot in the 1/60 to 1/15 range, even 1/8 once
> and a while, and vibration from mirror slap was never a problem. Ditto for
> tripod shots.
>
> Of course, I used Canon equipment...
>

Lol - I can tell when someone's using a rebel when they are 20 feet
behind me, my eyes are closed, and volume on my iPod is less than full.
>
> Further, it seems to me that longer telephotos are normally heavier, so they
> should be impacted less by mirror vibrations. -- unless your mount was
> really loose and the camera was free to move independant of the lens.
>

Longer means that a small movement is seen more, also I expect that
inertia an lower "resonance frequency" of a long lens on a tripod means
that even if it shakes less, the effect is probably seen more, and/or at
different shutter speeds.

> Perhaps that is a Nikon issue as well.
>

Lol

>
> As soon as VR / IS comes into play, this should be a non issue since that is
> exactly the range where this system works best, and most modern digital SLRs
> at least have an optional shake reduction system available.e. Or, doesn't
> Nikon's work in that range?
>

Nikon, in a rare moment of non-brilliance, produced a solution for a
problem that wasn't needed, and doesn't work anyway. They made a macro
lens with VR. VR doesn't work with Macro. Macro is what I'd use
MLU/release delay mode for, and IS is a complete waste of time.

YMMV.
 
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Dudley Hanks
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-18-2008

"frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1205800363.484372@ftpsrv1...
> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>> "frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:1205792974.829092@ftpsrv1...
>>> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>>>> "Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>>>> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why -
>>>>> I
>>>>> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
>>>>> exposures?
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfred Molon
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
>>>>> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
>>>> From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
>>>> exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
>>>> shake.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams
>>>> open just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I
>>>> think that would be a rather rare case.
>>>>
>>>> The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
>>>> multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as
>>>> fast as the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.
>>>>
>>>> Good Luck,
>>>> Dudley
>>>>
>>> I disagree with that.
>>> Between about 1/60th of a second and 1/2 second exposure, mirror-slap
>>> when the camera used on a tripod _is_ a significant effect. A self
>>> timer doesn't solve the problem.
>>> Progressively with longer exposures than that, and the effect doesn't
>>> show (the shaking subsides quickly).
>>> How bad the effect is,and at which shutter speeds it really matters
>>> depends on lens, tripod etc. With a longer lens, I'd expect that all
>>> other things being equal, the camera/lens would shake longer than with a
>>> light/short lens. I have been using a D70 (also with no MLU) for macro,
>>> and in natural light, sod's law seems to determine that most of the time
>>> you're in the critical zone where it's a real problem. I was using a
>>> 105mm lens, unfortunately with no tripod ring. I had better success
>>> with no tripod, but using a bean-bag to cradle the lens - apparently
>>> damping the mirror slap better than a tripod.
>>> Using a D80, with shutter release delay (still no full MLU), was a huge
>>> improvement. Full MLU is a further improvement.

>>
>> Well, I've hand-held many a shot in the 1/60 to 1/15 range, even 1/8 once
>> and a while, and vibration from mirror slap was never a problem. Ditto
>> for tripod shots.
>>
>> Of course, I used Canon equipment...
> >

> Lol - I can tell when someone's using a rebel when they are 20 feet behind
> me, my eyes are closed, and volume on my iPod is less than full.


You walk around with your eyes closed and listening to your ipodat high
volumes? I didn't realize I am not the only user on this group with a guide
dog...

But, I know what you mean. I'm still looking for the silencer I'm sure
Canon included with the packing material...

>>
>> Further, it seems to me that longer telephotos are normally heavier, so
>> they should be impacted less by mirror vibrations. -- unless your mount
>> was really loose and the camera was free to move independant of the lens.
>>

> Longer means that a small movement is seen more, also I expect that
> inertia an lower "resonance frequency" of a long lens on a tripod means
> that even if it shakes less, the effect is probably seen more, and/or at
> different shutter speeds.


This is an interesting question. Which factor impacts mirror slap related
vibrations more, lens weight or focal length? I tend to think that lens
weight plays a bigger role because the lens would have to slap harder to get
the lens moving. Minimal lens slap, and I think most modern cameras tend to
have only minimal slap, would be damped by the weight of most telephoto
lenses. I think this is one reason why VR / IS works fairly well. On the
flip side, though, you are right. Whatever vibration is there will be
magnified by the longer focal length.

>
>> Perhaps that is a Nikon issue as well.
> >

> Lol


I should point out that in my previous reply, I had to bite my tongue. I
was going to add a little barb that the rumour mill is rampant about Nikon's
new ABC system which will cut down on camera wear and tear and act as a
support
mechanism to the company's embattled VR system. With ABC standing for Air
Buffered Components...

>
>>
>> As soon as VR / IS comes into play, this should be a non issue since that
>> is exactly the range where this system works best, and most modern
>> digital SLRs at least have an optional shake reduction system
>> available.e. Or, doesn't Nikon's work in that range?
>>

> Nikon, in a rare moment of non-brilliance, produced a solution for a
> problem that wasn't needed, and doesn't work


I thought it was Panasonic that is "slightly ahead of its time."

anyway. They made a macro
> lens with VR. VR doesn't work with Macro. Macro is what I'd use
> MLU/release delay mode for, and IS is a complete waste of time.


I haven't done much macro work, so I can't comment on that area, yet.
Lately, I've been trying out some quasi-macro shots with my Powershot A720
IS, but, the mirror slap is still a non-issue with this camera. Maybe, I'll
just have to bite the bullet and get a macro lens for the Rebel...

>
> YMMV.


Take Care,
Dudley


 
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frederick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-18-2008
Dudley Hanks wrote:
>
> I haven't done much macro work, so I can't comment on that area, yet.
> Lately, I've been trying out some quasi-macro shots with my Powershot A720
> IS, but, the mirror slap is still a non-issue with this camera. Maybe, I'll
> just have to bite the bullet and get a macro lens for the Rebel...
>

I do a bit of landscape shooting too, but generally using such a wide
lens that mirror-slap is a non event at any shutter speed. I'd guess it
would be more of a problem with a long telephoto as it is with macro
where the problem is that unless bumping ISO right up beyond reason,
outdoors - unless in (preferably filtered) sunlight, at f8-16, the
shutter speed falls longer than 1/60th more often than not. If you're
shooting very close in natural light, expect some frustrations with the
dslr - it's not easy compared to using a compact camera, and it might
take a while to get results that improve on what you can already get.
 
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Pete D
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-18-2008

"Dudley Hanks" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:icFDj.106899$w57.44572@edtnps90...
>
> "frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:1205800363.484372@ftpsrv1...
>> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>>> "frederick" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:1205792974.829092@ftpsrv1...
>>>> Dudley Hanks wrote:
>>>>> "Alfred Molon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>>> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>>>>> It seems the Sony A350 does not have mirror lock up (don't know why -
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> thought all DSLRs had mirror lock up). How important is it for long
>>>>>> exposures?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alfred Molon
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
>>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
>>>>>> http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
>>>>> From my experience, mirror lockup isn't all that important for long
>>>>> exposures. The self-timer usually works just fine to eliminate camera
>>>>> shake.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose, if you had a really light camera, and if the mirror slams
>>>>> open just as the exposure begins, it might become an issue. But, I
>>>>> think that would be a rather rare case.
>>>>>
>>>>> The lockup thing takes on more importance when you are trying to shoot
>>>>> multiple fast exposures. In this case, if the mirror can't open as
>>>>> fast as the shutter, it gums up the works and limits the fps rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>> Dudley
>>>>>
>>>> I disagree with that.
>>>> Between about 1/60th of a second and 1/2 second exposure, mirror-slap
>>>> when the camera used on a tripod _is_ a significant effect. A self
>>>> timer doesn't solve the problem.
>>>> Progressively with longer exposures than that, and the effect doesn't
>>>> show (the shaking subsides quickly).
>>>> How bad the effect is,and at which shutter speeds it really matters
>>>> depends on lens, tripod etc. With a longer lens, I'd expect that all
>>>> other things being equal, the camera/lens would shake longer than with
>>>> a light/short lens. I have been using a D70 (also with no MLU) for
>>>> macro, and in natural light, sod's law seems to determine that most of
>>>> the time you're in the critical zone where it's a real problem. I was
>>>> using a 105mm lens, unfortunately with no tripod ring. I had better
>>>> success with no tripod, but using a bean-bag to cradle the lens -
>>>> apparently damping the mirror slap better than a tripod.
>>>> Using a D80, with shutter release delay (still no full MLU), was a huge
>>>> improvement. Full MLU is a further improvement.
>>>
>>> Well, I've hand-held many a shot in the 1/60 to 1/15 range, even 1/8
>>> once and a while, and vibration from mirror slap was never a problem.
>>> Ditto for tripod shots.
>>>
>>> Of course, I used Canon equipment...
>> >

>> Lol - I can tell when someone's using a rebel when they are 20 feet
>> behind me, my eyes are closed, and volume on my iPod is less than full.

>
> You walk around with your eyes closed and listening to your ipodat high
> volumes? I didn't realize I am not the only user on this group with a
> guide dog...
>
> But, I know what you mean. I'm still looking for the silencer I'm sure
> Canon included with the packing material...
>
>>>
>>> Further, it seems to me that longer telephotos are normally heavier, so
>>> they should be impacted less by mirror vibrations. -- unless your mount
>>> was really loose and the camera was free to move independant of the
>>> lens.
>>>

>> Longer means that a small movement is seen more, also I expect that
>> inertia an lower "resonance frequency" of a long lens on a tripod means
>> that even if it shakes less, the effect is probably seen more, and/or at
>> different shutter speeds.

>
> This is an interesting question. Which factor impacts mirror slap related
> vibrations more, lens weight or focal length? I tend to think that lens
> weight plays a bigger role because the lens would have to slap harder to
> get the lens moving. Minimal lens slap, and I think most modern cameras
> tend to have only minimal slap, would be damped by the weight of most
> telephoto lenses. I think this is one reason why VR / IS works fairly
> well. On the flip side, though, you are right. Whatever vibration is
> there will be magnified by the longer focal length.
>
>>
>>> Perhaps that is a Nikon issue as well.
>> >

>> Lol

>
> I should point out that in my previous reply, I had to bite my tongue. I
> was going to add a little barb that the rumour mill is rampant about
> Nikon's new ABC system which will cut down on camera wear and tear and act
> as a support
> mechanism to the company's embattled VR system. With ABC standing for Air
> Buffered Components...
>
>>
>>>
>>> As soon as VR / IS comes into play, this should be a non issue since
>>> that is exactly the range where this system works best, and most modern
>>> digital SLRs at least have an optional shake reduction system
>>> available.e. Or, doesn't Nikon's work in that range?
>>>

>> Nikon, in a rare moment of non-brilliance, produced a solution for a
>> problem that wasn't needed, and doesn't work

>
> I thought it was Panasonic that is "slightly ahead of its time."
>
> anyway. They made a macro
>> lens with VR. VR doesn't work with Macro. Macro is what I'd use
>> MLU/release delay mode for, and IS is a complete waste of time.

>
> I haven't done much macro work, so I can't comment on that area, yet.
> Lately, I've been trying out some quasi-macro shots with my Powershot A720
> IS, but, the mirror slap is still a non-issue with this camera. Maybe,
> I'll just have to bite the bullet and get a macro lens for the Rebel...
>
>>
>> YMMV.

>
> Take Care,
> Dudley
>

Have to agree with Frederick here, IMHE, macros (assuming a non moving
target) works much better with MLU and no IS/VR with close subjects.


 
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