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Learn from the Best Photographers in the World. We have DVDs.

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John Navas added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

John, I've very much enjoyed discussing this topic with you as I
did the DVD-R and +R differences. I have learned a lot from you
and I respect your knowledge and opinions. I'm top posting
instead of replying paragraph by paragraph, though, because I
sense the cart getting before the horse in some sentences while
he's in the correct place behind the cart in others. Thus, I do
not know how to respond without picking an argument with you,
which I want to avoid.

So, while I do agree with much of what you say, there's enough
areas of disagreement that I think I'll let it drop. To end on a
positive note, I still believe that if both customers and IP
owners took some of your ideas and some of mine and combined them
(somehow) into a new way of doing business, the field would be
leveled and everyone would be happy. I just don't know how to
make that happen.

Have a great week and let's try a new topic for debate.

>>How does piracy keep prices down? I know someone, a relative,
>>who has 100% warez bootleg SW on his PC. That tends to drive
>>prices up IMO because the developers want a set level of
>>return on investment - although it may be UNreasonable to the
>>customer at today's prices - so they will jack up the price to
>>cover the perceived piracy. Now, if the threat is unfounded,
>>then your point is probably more valid than mine.

> I think piracy keeps prices down because (a) copyright is a
> legal monopoly and (b) lower prices serve to discourage
> piracy, as I've seen firsthand. For example, if a kid has to
> shell out $18 for a CD just to get one cut he likes, then he's
> more likely to forego purchase and just copy it. Make that
> one cut easily available for purchase at $1, or drop the
> entire CD price down to $10, and he's more likely to buy it.
> I think it's a mistake to assume that piracy somehow has any
> real effect on rate of return on investment -- there's no real
> evidence I know of that any significant amount of piracy gets
> turned into increased sales sufficient to offset the increased
> costs by copy protection. As pirates often say, they just
> wouldn't be buying it.
> Why then do copyright holders pursue copy protection? I think
> it's out of a misplaced desire for control, in the hope of
> increasing revenue, often by outrageous double-dipping. Why
> should a consumer that's bought a CD have to pay again to have
> a ring tone of one of the cuts? Yet that's just what the
> music giants want, and piracy has nothing to do with it.
> Economics teaches that competition drives prices down toward
> marginal cost, but that doesn't apply to copyright since it's
> a legal monopoly, and there often aren't real substitutes.
>>> Again, I doubt it. As an active beta tester I know for a
>>> fact that many companies deliberately ship products with
>>> known bugs, some of which are quite serious.

>>You and I go way back, John, as you illustrated above. And, I
>>know from personal experience with software for many years,
>>including the early copy protection on the Apple, that it
>>makes the programmers job much more difficult and adds
>>code/complexity which makes alpha and beta testing more of a
>>challenge. It CAN be done, as you comment on, but what then
>>explains the rising bugs as more and more activation and other
>>crap goes on, in addition to more glitz and shorter debug
>>time? The less crap code not related to the purpose of the
>>product means less bloat, faster execution, faster installs,
>>and in my experience (admittedly older than yours) more
>>chance for side-effect bugs to slip by.

> My own take is that copy protection is only a minor factor in
> this mess, that the major factors are massive code bloat,
> excessive complexity, feature creep, poor quality management,
> and more concern with getting it out the door than with
> getting it out the door right.
> One case in point is Adobe Photoshop Elements 6, where Adobe
> has actually said it delayed writing all the help and
> documentation until after the code was written so that
> implementation could keep changing until the last minute.
> Yikes! My take as a software quality professional is that's
> absolutely the wrong way to go about it, effectively
> backwards. The right way is to design the app properly, with
> built-in quality, document it, and only then write the code,
> which takes much less time and comes out with much better
> quality.
> Older experience than me? My first code was written in 1960.
> You?
>>> I see no evidence that copyright holders would be more
>>> reasonable in their behavior. If anything, just the
>>> opposite.

>>Well, as things stand now, you're right. But, just like the
>>Israelis and Palistinians, at some point, you HAVE to
>>negotiate. Doesn't mean there's a peace treaty at the first
>>Camp David meeting or even after 10-20 years, but for both the
>>IP owners and the customers, a new paradigm is needed. As I
>>mentioned above, each "side" has to be willing to give a
>>little to get a little until the escalation in prices and
>>piracy becomes de-escalation.

> I don't see this as customers having to give a little --
> they've lost too much already. I think what's needed is a
> return to a level playing field -- the balance has tilted way
> too much toward copyright holders, which I think has actually
> exacerbated the problem.
>>I doubt that's easy and may not happen in my lifetime, but I
>>feel that we'll never know if the SW and music/movie industry
>>doesn't use some sort of focus groups, panels, town halls,
>>something to get more in tune and in touch with their
>>customers and be less arogant.

> I agree.
>>And, customers have to show their honesty more than I
>>perceive they are.

> I think customers are basically honest, but perceive they are
> being screwed, so bend the rules more than they normally
> would.
>>So, while you may disagree with me, I do not disagree that
>>much with you. I think you have many valid points and we
>>should combine our ideas somehow.

> Agreed.
>>Have a great day!

> You too!

HP, aka Jerry

"Surely you jest - and don't call me Shirley!" - from the movie
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Darn, I just ordered 2 DVD's from veevideo before i found this thread
while searching, i guess you guys are saying i won't be getting
original DVD's. If they turn out to be fake, I'll be returning them
and asking my CC company to do a chargeback.
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Neil Ellwood
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:57:26 -0700, l.johnstone wrote:

> Darn, I just ordered 2 DVD's from veevideo before i found this thread
> while searching, i guess you guys are saying i won't be getting original
> DVD's. If they turn out to be fake, I'll be returning them and asking my
> CC company to do a chargeback.

If they are fake you should take them to your local trading standards
office for their inspection.

Still claim your money back quoting whatever your trading standards
officer said. You could also inform your local constabulary.

reverse ra and delete l
Linux user 335851
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