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David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:
>> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>
>>> So you don't necessarily get the dim view a small f-stop would give in
>>> an optical viewfinder, so it's not the problem it is with an optical
>>> viewfinder.
>
>> Huh? All, or nearly all camera's have used full aperture viewing for many
>> decades.
>> The camera only stops the lens down for the duration of the exposure.
>> Are there actually camera's currently being made that don't do that?
>
> I don't know about currently, but both the F707 and R1 operate at the
> shooting f stop for viewing.
>
> It's the natural thing to do with through-the-sensor (aka "live") view on
> LCD panel or EVF, so I'd guess that many P&S cameras operate that way.
>
> It's only a problem when you try to focus manually. Then it's a major
> infelicity.
>
> (My memory has it that the F707 would open up the aperture to AF.)

It could potentially improve AF speed a lot I would think, although
maybe not depending how it works. For the live view effect it mostly
makes sense to stop down. For the ones that zoom in when manual
focusing, they really should open up for that. I suppose with the new LV
DSLRs, you can punch the DOF preview button?

On Jan 25, 1:11 pm, "Rita Berkowitz" <ritaberk2...@aol.com> wrote:
> Yes folks, it's true. Contrary to what the misfits, inbreeds, posers,
> wannabes, miscreants, and other assorted flavors of idiot we have out here,
> "zooming with your feet" is the industry standard and technically correct
> terminology adopted and used by pro shooters world wide. It even goes
> further into the realm of scientific wonders.
>
> <http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2008/zoom_zoom.htm>
>
> Rita

How DARE you try to pry lazy, superzoom P&S users out of their easy
chairs! What's a little CA if you can sit like a cooked squash and
shoot off frame after mediocre frame?

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote:
> "David J. Littleboy" <> wrote:
>> >> So you don't necessarily get the dim view a small f-stop would give in
>> >> an optical viewfinder, so it's not the problem it is with an optical
>> >> viewfinder.

Note: the above wasn't me. (It was Chris M, I think.)

>> > Huh? All, or nearly all camera's have used full aperture viewing for
> many
>> > decades.
>> > The camera only stops the lens down for the duration of the exposure.
>> > Are there actually camera's currently being made that don't do that?
>>
>> I don't know about currently, but both the F707 and R1 operate at the
>> shooting f stop for viewing.
>>
>> It's the natural thing to do with through-the-sensor (aka "live") view on
>> LCD panel or EVF,
>
> But you said "with an optical viewfinder".

No, I didn't. (Or didn't intend to. I'm talking about Sony evf cameras that
provide manual focusing. Your quote attribution is off, I think.)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:

> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>
>>> When you turn the manual focus ring, does it leave the f stop at the
>>> shooting f stop, or does it open up the aperture automatically so that
>>> you
>>> can actually focus?
>>
>> No,

> So it's the same onoxious design as the F707. Sigh.

>> but it's not a case of f-stop.

> Of course it's the f stop (or aperture).

Not necessarily in the case of EVF. In an optical viewfinder f-stop
will inevitably affect brightness. In an EVF it doesn't necessarily do
so, because you have the options of a) increasing the effective
exposure (EVF lag) or ramping up the electronic amplification, so that
you can show a bright image even at what would in an optical
viewfinder be a dim f-stop. What the camera maker chooses to do with
those technological possibilities is another question, of course.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When you turn the manual focus ring, does it leave the f stop at the
>>>> shooting f stop, or does it open up the aperture automatically so that
>>>> you
>>>> can actually focus?
>>>
>>> No,
>
>> So it's the same onoxious design as the F707. Sigh.
>
>>> but it's not a case of f-stop.
>
>> Of course it's the f stop (or aperture).
>
> Not necessarily in the case of EVF. In an optical viewfinder f-stop
> will inevitably affect brightness.

You're talking about something different. The only thing I'm concerned with
here is being forced to focus manually with the aperture stopped down; I'm
perfectly aware that EVF/screen brightness isn't an issue or problem.

What is an issue is that it's harder to see where the plane of focus is at
smaller apertures, even if brightness is the same adequate. At a wider
aperture, things snap in and out of focus quite clearly, at a narrower
aperture, the increased DOF makes it harder to see where the plane of focus
is.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:47:47 +0000, Chris Malcolm wrote:


>> Of course it's the f stop (or aperture).
>
> Not necessarily in the case of EVF. In an optical viewfinder f-stop will
> inevitably affect brightness. In an EVF it doesn't necessarily do so,
> because you have the options of a) increasing the effective exposure
> (EVF lag) or ramping up the electronic amplification, so that you can
> show a bright image even at what would in an optical viewfinder be a dim
> f-stop. What the camera maker chooses to do with those technological
> possibilities is another question, of course.

I used to have a Retina 1b with an optical viewfinder and that wasn't
affected by the chosen 'f-stop' at all. Most fairly simple cameras were
built this way at that time (and even some not so simple such as the
Retina 11c).
--
Neil
reverse ra and delete l
Linux user 335851

In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>>>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When you turn the manual focus ring, does it leave the f stop at the
>>>>> shooting f stop, or does it open up the aperture automatically so that
>>>>> you
>>>>> can actually focus?
>>>>
>>>> No,
>>
>>> So it's the same onoxious design as the F707. Sigh.
>>
>>>> but it's not a case of f-stop.
>>
>>> Of course it's the f stop (or aperture).
>>
>> Not necessarily in the case of EVF. In an optical viewfinder f-stop
>> will inevitably affect brightness.

> You're talking about something different. The only thing I'm concerned with
> here is being forced to focus manually with the aperture stopped down; I'm
> perfectly aware that EVF/screen brightness isn't an issue or problem.

Well, you're not *forced* to focus with the small aperture. You only
have to click a dial to open the lens to do the focussing

> What is an issue is that it's harder to see where the plane of focus is at
> smaller apertures, even if brightness is the same adequate. At a wider
> aperture, things snap in and out of focus quite clearly, at a narrower
> aperture, the increased DOF makes it harder to see where the plane of focus
> is.

I agree, it would be nice if they flipped the aperture wide when doing
manual focussing. I don't get as annoyed about such infelicities as
some since for serious high quality photographs I've only just moved
up from a background of simpler mostly manual cameras where I had to
do nearly everything myself, and finding that the camera does at least
some of what I want is still a great delight

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Chris Malcolm" <> wrote in message
news:...
> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>>> "Chris Malcolm" <> wrote:
>>>>> In rec.photo.digital David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When you turn the manual focus ring, does it leave the f stop at the
>>>>>> shooting f stop, or does it open up the aperture automatically so
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can actually focus?
>>>>>
>>>>> No,
>>>
>>>> So it's the same onoxious design as the F707. Sigh.
>>>
>>>>> but it's not a case of f-stop.
>>>
>>>> Of course it's the f stop (or aperture).
>>>
>>> Not necessarily in the case of EVF. In an optical viewfinder f-stop
>>> will inevitably affect brightness.
>
>> You're talking about something different. The only thing I'm concerned
>> with
>> here is being forced to focus manually with the aperture stopped down;
>> I'm
>> perfectly aware that EVF/screen brightness isn't an issue or problem.
>
> Well, you're not *forced* to focus with the small aperture. You only
> have to click a dial to open the lens to do the focussing

And then you have to rotate it back to take the shot. Been there, done that.
It's not nice.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan