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Linux Journal Survey

 
 
dwblas@gmail.com
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      01-24-2008
The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101
 
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George Sakkis
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      01-24-2008
On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
> want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101


....

18. What is your favorite programming language?

(15 choices, Python not included)


19. What is your favorite scripting language?

o Python

o Perl

(5 more choices)


Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
pass.

George
 
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Ben Finney
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      01-24-2008
George Sakkis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
> > who want to vote for Python.
> > http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

>
> ...
> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
> (15 choices, Python not included)
>
> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
> o Python
> o Perl
> (5 more choices)
>
> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
> means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
> Sorry, I'll pass.


I agree entirely.

The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
for much else.

In contrast, the term "program" (and hence "programming language")
implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions.

This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.

--
\ "Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the |
`\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, |
_o__) it is no longer so." -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ |
Ben Finney
 
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Paddy
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      01-24-2008
On 24 Jan, 04:59, Ben Finney <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
> George Sakkis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
> > > who want to vote for Python.
> > >http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

>
> > ...
> > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
> > (15 choices, Python not included)

>
> > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
> > o Python
> > o Perl
> > (5 more choices)

>
> > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
> > means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
> > Sorry, I'll pass.

>
> I agree entirely.
>
> The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
> program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
> simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
> scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
> becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
> for much else.
>
> In contrast, the term "program" (and hence "programming language")
> implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions.
>
> This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
> unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
> in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.
>
> --
> \ "Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the |
> `\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, |
> _o__) it is no longer so." -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ |
> Ben Finney


Hi George, Ben,
In the past I have taken the high ground by arguing that the usual
tasks associated with scripting are very important and that languages
like Python/Ruby can script as well as write substantial programs in
the non-scripting sense. Therefore, if their language of choice does
not encompass scripting then it is a lesser language.
'They' may look down on scripting but a lot of that is a mixture of
ignorance and envy

- Paddy.
 
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samwyse
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      01-24-2008
Ben Finney wrote:
> George Sakkis <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>
>>On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>
>>>The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
>>>who want to vote for Python.
>>>http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

>>
>>...
>>18. What is your favorite programming language?
>>(15 choices, Python not included)
>>
>>19. What is your favorite scripting language?
>>o Python
>>o Perl
>>(5 more choices)
>>
>>Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
>>means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
>>Sorry, I'll pass.

>
>
> I agree entirely.
>
> The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
> program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
> simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
> scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
> becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
> for much else.


I strongly disagree with your interpretation. Scritping languages
provide high-level facilites for process control. Historically, they
were purely interpretive but now they tend to compile to some sort of
byte code. Examples include the various shells, Rexx, and various
languages whose names start with "P". Languages which only express a
"series of steps" are generally called batch languages. I've never
heard anyone refer to a .BAT file as a script.

In scripting languages, speed of execution is often less important than
speed of implementation. When speed of execution is important, it is
easier to invoke an external module than to patch or rewrite the
interpreter. In Python, PERL and BASH, these modules can be dynamically
linked libraries as well as stand-alone executables.

Finally, the provided process control facilities are often generalized
into quite powerful support for "programming in the large", especially
both object-oriented and functional programming. This leads to supprot
for a much broader set of practices and solutions than any mere
programming language can easily provide.

The only drawback I've ever found to this is that it's easy to
accidentally use huge amounts of memory, for instance by 'slurping'
files into memory in a single command.

> This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
> unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
> in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.


Apparently the core developers agree with my interpretation, not yours.
 
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Russ P.
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      01-24-2008
On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
> > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

>
> ...
>
> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
>
> (15 choices, Python not included)
>
> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
>
> o Python
>
> o Perl
>
> (5 more choices)
>
> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
> pass.
>
> George



Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
"script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
their place.

I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.
 
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Paul Boddie
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      01-24-2008
On 24 Jan, 04:42, George Sakkis <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
> > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

>
> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
>
> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?


20. "What is your favourite colour?"

> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
> pass.


Well, LJ isn't my chosen reading material any more, but a "write-in
vote" sends the appropriate message in this case. I anticipate the
usual "C/C++ is the favourite programming language on Linux" routine
when the results get published but, as I wrote, LJ passed the point of
no subscription some time ago.

Paul
 
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Tim Chase
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      01-24-2008
>> want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101
>
> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
>
> (15 choices, Python not included)


I'm not sure why some folks have their knickers in a knot...I
took the survey and there was an "Other" box, so I just wrote in
"Python" for my favorite programming language.

I mean, Basic, Lisp, and Prolog make it in there...I use Python
for programming a heckuva lot more than I use any of the others.

> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
>
> o Python


and answered Python for this question too.

-tkc


 
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Steven D'Aprano
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      01-25-2008
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:22:04 +0000, samwyse wrote:

>> The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
>> program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
>> simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
>> scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which becomes
>> a denigration because such a language need not have support for much
>> else.

>
> I strongly disagree with your interpretation. Scritping languages
> provide high-level facilites for process control. Historically, they
> were purely interpretive but now they tend to compile to some sort of
> byte code. Examples include the various shells, Rexx, and various
> languages whose names start with "P".


Do you have a source for your claim that the shells (e.g. Linux/Unix
shells bash, ksh, zsh, etc. or Windows shells cmd.exe, command.com) are
compiled to byte code? I don't believe this is the case, I understand
that they are typically "immediate interpreted" languages, that is, each
line in interpreted from source code immediately before being executed,
as often as it takes.

Note to purists: yes, I know that being interpreted or compiled is a
property of the implementation, not the language. But when all the
implementations of a language (where "all" might mean "the only one"), I
think it is reasonable to blur the lines.


> Languages which only express a
> "series of steps" are generally called batch languages.


Maybe in the Windows/DOS world, but not typically in the Linux/Unix
world, where they are called scripting languages.


> I've never
> heard anyone refer to a .BAT file as a script.


Linux/Unix/Mac admins may be excused for saying that they've never come
across a .BAT file at all.

$ locate .bat | wc -l
14

Oh well, what do you know! I've got fourteen of the beggars. Hmmm... two
are in the Python standard lib, two are in wxPython, six seem to be in
the game Abuse, a couple of false positives, and a few odd files.

$ locate .sh | wc -l
606



--
Steven
 
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Dennis Lee Bieber
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      01-25-2008
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:58:14 -0000, Steven D'Aprano
<(E-Mail Removed)> declaimed the following in
comp.lang.python:

> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:22:04 +0000, samwyse wrote:
>

<snip>
>
> > Languages which only express a
> > "series of steps" are generally called batch languages.

>
> Maybe in the Windows/DOS world, but not typically in the Linux/Unix
> world, where they are called scripting languages.
>


In my background, they were "job control languages" (and the TRS-80,
running under L(S)-DOS even had a two-level job control language: if
simple in-line substitution it was direct "inject command to command
interpreter" form; but it also had the ability for complex stuff (those
with conditionals or loops) to be "compiled" -- in processing the
conditional/loop logic to generate a pure "in-line" control file which
was then executed).

And the only language I've encountered that I truly considered a
"scripting" language was the Amiga implementation of REXX (and, barely,
the original IBM version since it could address the standard IBM
editor), as ARexx could "address" any application that opened a named
ARexx port (Regina and OoRexx seem to be restricted to only addressing a
command shell with environment variable translation, or a command shell
without such -- that is spawn a program by itself, or spawn a program
through a console interpreter). And any statement that is not a Rexx
statement (easiest done by quoting it to a string) is automatically
passed to the "current" "address"

address WORDPROCESSOR
'top'
'select'
'end'
'cut'
text = RESULT
address MAILCLIENT
'newmail http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) "Current Text"'
'paste' RESULT

{totally fictitious example, but it gets the point across}
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(E-Mail Removed) (E-Mail Removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (E-Mail Removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
 
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