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Hi all,

my boss asked for copies of my certificates to be stored with my personal
record. After handing over the copies she asked why there's no data of
achievement on the certificate. She was satisified with a printout of my
transcript (which does show the dates) from the MCP site.

Maybe a silly question, but does anyone know why the date of achievement
isn't on the certificate?

- Jonathan

"Jonathan Wood" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Hi all,
>
> my boss asked for copies of my certificates to be stored with my personal
> record. After handing over the copies she asked why there's no data of
> achievement on the certificate. She was satisified with a printout of my
> transcript (which does show the dates) from the MCP site.
>
> Maybe a silly question, but does anyone know why the date of achievement
> isn't on the certificate?
>
> - Jonathan
>

Jonathan,

How old are you?... And you're still trying to understand women? It wasn't
enough for you to prove it with the certificate. How else is she going to
be able to compare you to other men? If Microsoft put the date on the cert,
then she would ask if that really was Bill Gates' signature or if it was
just a stamp, then you would be back here asking that question.

John R

"John R" <jsr^^^813@zoom^^^internet.net> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "Jonathan Wood" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> my boss asked for copies of my certificates to be stored with my personal
>> record. After handing over the copies she asked why there's no data of
>> achievement on the certificate. She was satisified with a printout of my
>> transcript (which does show the dates) from the MCP site.
>>
>> Maybe a silly question, but does anyone know why the date of achievement
>> isn't on the certificate?
>>
>> - Jonathan
>>
>
> Jonathan,
>
> How old are you?... And you're still trying to understand women? It
> wasn't enough for you to prove it with the certificate. How else is she
> going to be able to compare you to other men? If Microsoft put the date
> on the cert, then she would ask if that really was Bill Gates' signature
> or if it was just a stamp, then you would be back here asking that
> question.
>
> John R
>

Hey John,

you're right, its a probably 'woman/girl-thing'. I'm an idiot for asking
here and I'll tell her she's an idiot for asking me .

Greetings,

Jonathan

(P.S. The reason she asked is that she wanted some sort of proof (I guess)
that I achieved the certification during my time of employment at this
company. The printout of the Transcript will have to do for now.)

"Jonathan Wood" <> wrote in message
news::

<snipped>

> The printout of the Transcript will have to do for now.

Or if you have your exam results. Those have dates on them. But your
transcript should suffice. If she just really thinks you are hosing her,
you could give her access to view your transcript online via share code.

--
Michael D. Alligood, MCITP, MCTS, MCSA, MCDST
The I.T. Classroom - http://www.theitclassroom.com/
CertGuard, Inc. - http://www.certguard.com/
Microsoft Exam Security Newsgroup -
microsoft.public.certification.exam.security

Although I commend John and Michael for answering your post, neither of them
answered your question.

The general thinking behind why there is no date on the certificate is
likely twofold:

1. The MCP credential is meaningless. Of course it is not, but it does not
say WHAT you are certified in, only that you passed a Microsoft
certification exam. That exam could have been on Windows NT 3.51 or Windows
Server 2003 or Windows Vista, the certificate (and the certification) does
not specify. So what would adding a date do?

2. Although we all know this is not truly the case, once you have a
particular certification you are supposed to have the same knowledge as
everyone else with that certification, or at least Microsoft wants people
looking at our certificates to not give Michael's certificate more weight
than Sam's just because he passed his exam six weeks earlier. An MCSA
should be an MCSA.

There are two interesting notes to this:

Firstly the date you achieved your first MCP exam is listed on your wallet
cards. However the date, no matter which card you have, is not the date you
achieved that certification, rather it is the date you joined the MCP
program.

Secondly the MCT certificates do say 'Certified Since...' and I am not sure
why. However that date matches the date on your original MCP card. It
should be noted that the MCT certificates are issued yearly, so the
certificate I received this year says Certificate of Excellence 2007, so
this might be to show that any MCT with that certificate is not a NEW MCT.

All this of course is purely speculative... but to prove to your employer
(or anyone else) the date you achieved any certification or passed any exam,
either print out your Transcript for them, or give them your Transcript
Sharing Code.

Have fun!

Montreal MCT
Microsoft MVP: Windows Server - Customer Experience
http://blog.mitchgarvis.com


"Jonathan Wood" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Hi all,
>
> my boss asked for copies of my certificates to be stored with my personal
> record. After handing over the copies she asked why there's no data of
> achievement on the certificate. She was satisified with a printout of my
> transcript (which does show the dates) from the MCP site.
>
> Maybe a silly question, but does anyone know why the date of achievement
> isn't on the certificate?
>
> - Jonathan
>

> 2. Although we all know this is not truly the case, once you have a
> particular certification you are supposed to have the same knowledge as
> everyone else with that certification, or at least Microsoft wants people
> looking at our certificates to not give Michael's certificate more weight
> than Sam's just because he passed his exam six weeks earlier. An MCSA
> should be an MCSA.
>

I'm sorry that I butting in on this thread so late and I hope I'm rehashing
anything already covered, but the above statement of Mitch's brings up a
sore point of mine; all MCPs are NOT created equal.

Just think of the MCP that took his exam three or four times and then just
barely passed. How knowledgably or skillful do you really think this person
is. And who does Microsoft think they're fooling saying that this person
meets the minimum requirements for administering, maintaining, or servicing
a particular product. The official line is that each MCP also needs some
specified time period of hands on experience. But we all know that most
people pass their exams with little or no hands on experience.

I never did liked the pass/no pass scoring and I'm glad they done away with
it. Event if its only for personal use, I like to know exactly how well I
did on an exam. Of course, everyone don't receive the same exam and the
exams today are so short that not every objective is tested. So some times a
person can get lucky and pass because their exam just covered the areas they
knew well, and sometimes a person can get unlucky and fail because their
exam is heavily waited in an area that they are week in.

When ever someone wishes me good luck on an exam, I always say that luck has
nothing to do with it, either you're prepared or or not. We all know MCPs
that just got lucky, that's why I think the current passing scores (always
around 70%) is much too low. I believe that a passing score of 80% or 85%
would be much more appropriate. And if the exams were written differently,
to only test pure knowledge and skills, a passing score of 90% wouldn't be
unreasonable.

What do I mean by written differently? They need to be made up of a mix of
1.) pure knowledge questions, 2.) true simulators, and 3.) short scenarios.


1.) Pure Knowledge Questions: A combination of True/False, Multiple Choice,
and Select All that Apply with no tricks. For example, when the exam taker
reads a multiple choice question they should be able to forms the right
answer in their head before they look down at any of the provided choices.


2.) True Simulators: Novell had these types of questions over a decade ago.
Either a command line in which you have to exactly enter in a command with
all of its switches, or a simulated GUI in which you must navigate through a
management console and its various dialog boxes to configure a specified
results. You should be graded, not only, on if you achieve the desired
configuration, but also on how directly you did it. If you have to open and
close the dialogs boxes half a dozen times before you get everything right,
then you should only get partial credit for the question.

3.) Short Scenarios: I've taken three of the Design Exams, Networking,
Security, & Messaging and I assure you this is not what I'm asking for. A
short Scenario should take only five to ten minutes to read and answer.

One reason may be that the date format for various parts of the world is
different.
For example, in the US they use Month-Day-Year, in most of the rest of the
world they use Day-Month-Year, except for Japan which uses Year-Month-Day.

--
Larry J. West, MCSD, MCPD, MCITP, MCTS x6, MOUS, FLMI, ACS
* always open to after-hours telecommute (second job) positions.
* developing personal computer software since before the PC.


"Jonathan Wood" wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> my boss asked for copies of my certificates to be stored with my personal
> record. After handing over the copies she asked why there's no data of
> achievement on the certificate. She was satisified with a printout of my
> transcript (which does show the dates) from the MCP site.
>
> Maybe a silly question, but does anyone know why the date of achievement
> isn't on the certificate?
>
> - Jonathan
>
>
>

I don't know if I am logged in as me, but it is Montreal MCT writing I
have a new computer and have not set EVERYTHING up yet.

My replies to your (Harvey's) comments are in-line.

> I'm sorry that I butting in on this thread so late and I hope I'm
> rehashing anything already covered, but the above statement of Mitch's
> brings up a sore point of mine; all MCPs are NOT created equal.

This is true no matter how you slice it. An MCP is defined as someone who
has passed a single certification exam. How can you compare someone who has
passed three exams on Server, Exchange, and Active Directory with someone
who has passed a single exam on Windows XP? Of course you cannot. Even if
they pass the same exam, Harvey is right that you can have someone who aced
it and someone who barely eked out a pass. These two IT Pros are not
equal... they do however hold the same certification, and there is a
difference. Unfortunately our profession is no different from any other,
and the guy who JUST PASSED in Med School is still a doctor.
>
> Just think of the MCP that took his exam three or four times and then just
> barely passed. How knowledgably or skillful do you really think this
> person is. And who does Microsoft think they're fooling saying that this
> person meets the minimum requirements for administering, maintaining, or
> servicing a particular product. The official line is that each MCP also
> needs some specified time period of hands on experience. But we all know
> that most people pass their exams with little or no hands on experience.

Firstly someone who barely passed an exam does, by definition, meet the
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. That does not mean they are a past master, but there
are IT Pros who barely meet the requirements. I also disagree with that
last comment... Maybe people taking their first certification exams are like
that, but for the most part that is not true.
>
> I never did liked the pass/no pass scoring and I'm glad they done away
> with it. Event if its only for personal use, I like to know exactly how
> well I did on an exam. Of course, everyone don't receive the same exam and
> the exams today are so short that not every objective is tested. So some
> times a person can get lucky and pass because their exam just covered the
> areas they knew well, and sometimes a person can get unlucky and fail
> because their exam is heavily waited in an area that they are week in.

Actually the way certification exams are written, at least now, that is not
true, or at least is not anymore. I am afraid that I cannot elaborate
without stepping on toes.

>
> When ever someone wishes me good luck on an exam, I always say that luck
> has nothing to do with it, either you're prepared or or not. We all know
> MCPs that just got lucky, that's why I think the current passing scores
> (always around 70%) is much too low. I believe that a passing score of 80%
> or 85% would be much more appropriate. And if the exams were written
> differently, to only test pure knowledge and skills, a passing score of
> 90% wouldn't be unreasonable.

The passing grade for certification exams is 700, but that does not mean
70%. The actual passing grade is a complex formula that is closely guarded,
and is different for each exam. On some exams 700 might be 65%, on others
it might be 85%. We just do not know.
>
> What do I mean by written differently? They need to be made up of a mix of
> 1.) pure knowledge questions, 2.) true simulators, and 3.) short
> scenarios.
>
>
> 1.) Pure Knowledge Questions: A combination of True/False, Multiple
> Choice, and Select All that Apply with no tricks. For example, when the
> exam taker reads a multiple choice question they should be able to forms
> the right answer in their head before they look down at any of the
> provided choices.

Trick questions have been eliminated in all of the new exams. They are
supposed to be straightforward, questions that people who know their stuff
will know, and only could be tricky to people who do NOT know.
>
>
> 2.) True Simulators: Novell had these types of questions over a decade
> ago. Either a command line in which you have to exactly enter in a command
> with all of its switches, or a simulated GUI in which you must navigate
> through a management console and its various dialog boxes to configure a
> specified results. You should be graded, not only, on if you achieve the
> desired configuration, but also on how directly you did it. If you have to
> open and close the dialogs boxes half a dozen times before you get
> everything right, then you should only get partial credit for the
> question.

There is no partial credit on exams, but I do know that they are working on
better simulations.
>
> 3.) Short Scenarios: I've taken three of the Design Exams, Networking,
> Security, & Messaging and I assure you this is not what I'm asking for. A
> short Scenario should take only five to ten minutes to read and answer.
>
>