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D300 BUG in Aperture Priority & Shutter Priority Mode

 
 
Chico
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
I posted something similar recently and have now asked Nikon but
figured I would post here also in case someone may have a solution.

This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see
what they say about it. Message posted read:
My meter display reads LO or HI erroneously or way to soon in my
opinion. LO and HI pop up in the display when proper exposures can
still be made.

My understanding is that LO means that the "picture will be
underexposed" if the user intends to stick with his selected F-Stop
(in A-mode) or Shutter Speed (in S-mode). The reason for underexposure
is because in A-mode, the camera has run out of shutter speeds (a
shutter speed greater than 30 seconds is required at the given
aperture). In S-mode, LO is displayed when the camera runs out of
F-Stops (the maximum aperture for that lens has been reached and you
still need to open up more to get the proper exposure). For HI, it
works the other way and overexposure results.

Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.

Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2 second. The
same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22 (at over 15
seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32, a shutter speed
greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds was required to make
the proper exposure.

Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And that
shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to 3200 on the
D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure is a very
respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!

Pictures taken at LO and HI seem to give good results. The display is
screwed up. However, it is very important to have these numbers
properly displayed so that the user can make decisions. For instance,
with landscape photography, most of my images are really slow and the
wind is always a factor. So, I really need to see the shutter speed
that's being chosen. And if A & S modes don't work properly, then it's
$1,800 for a camera that can only be used in Manual Exposure Mode.

I purchased a Sekonic light meter yesterday but hope that I am just
doing something wrong and that the camera meter is not really this
inaccurate or unable to produce readings at what should be a very
respectful settings range.


 
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Chico
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:26:59 -0500, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I posted something similar recently and have now asked Nikon but
>figured I would post here also in case someone may have a solution.
>
>This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
>well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see
>what they say about it. Message posted read:
>My meter display reads LO or HI erroneously or way to soon in my
>opinion. LO and HI pop up in the display when proper exposures can
>still be made.
>
>My understanding is that LO means that the "picture will be
>underexposed" if the user intends to stick with his selected F-Stop
>(in A-mode) or Shutter Speed (in S-mode). The reason for underexposure
>is because in A-mode, the camera has run out of shutter speeds (a
>shutter speed greater than 30 seconds is required at the given
>aperture). In S-mode, LO is displayed when the camera runs out of
>F-Stops (the maximum aperture for that lens has been reached and you
>still need to open up more to get the proper exposure). For HI, it
>works the other way and overexposure results.
>
>Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
>I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
>the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
>read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.
>
>Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
>dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
>f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
>occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2 second. The
>same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22 (at over 15
>seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32, a shutter speed
>greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds was required to make
>the proper exposure.
>
>Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And that
>shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to 3200 on the
>D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure is a very
>respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!
>
>Pictures taken at LO and HI seem to give good results. The display is
>screwed up. However, it is very important to have these numbers
>properly displayed so that the user can make decisions. For instance,
>with landscape photography, most of my images are really slow and the
>wind is always a factor. So, I really need to see the shutter speed
>that's being chosen. And if A & S modes don't work properly, then it's
>$1,800 for a camera that can only be used in Manual Exposure Mode.
>
>I purchased a Sekonic light meter yesterday but hope that I am just
>doing something wrong and that the camera meter is not really this
>inaccurate or unable to produce readings at what should be a very
>respectful settings range.
>

Nikon Responded and said basically the following

Nikon responded and said they are looking into it but that they
beleive this is normal for the D300, D2X, D3, D70 and other DSLR
cameras. They stated that their belief is that the LO in this case is
evaluating the scenes overall exposure value such as -2EV. See page
404.

This is why we are getting LO. I think LO comes on in two
circumstances when underexposure occurs and when the meter is
returning a negative value (so it does not matter what ISO you choose)

I am new so can someone translate this into english. I looked at page
404 and it was not helpful I dont understand what I am looking at.

Thanks
 
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acl
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
On Jan 12, 10:10 pm, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:26:59 -0500, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)>



> >Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
> >I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
> >the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
> >read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.

>
> >Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
> >dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
> >f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
> >occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2 second. The
> >same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22 (at over 15
> >seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32, a shutter speed
> >greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds was required to make
> >the proper exposure.

>
> >Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And that
> >shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to 3200 on the
> >D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure is a very
> >respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!

>


> Nikon Responded and said basically the following
>
> Nikon responded and said they are looking into it but that they
> beleive this is normal for the D300, D2X, D3, D70 and other DSLR
> cameras. They stated that their belief is that the LO in this case is
> evaluating the scenes overall exposure value such as -2EV. See page
> 404.
>
> This is why we are getting LO. I think LO comes on in two
> circumstances when underexposure occurs and when the meter is
> returning a negative value (so it does not matter what ISO you choose)
>
> I am new so can someone translate this into english. I looked at page
> 404 and it was not helpful I dont understand what I am looking at.
>


Well, -2 EV is 30s at f/4 ISO 200 (if I didn't miss any multiplication
in my head). Or 15s at f/2.8 at ISO 200. So it's not what they say.
And in fact I have observed the same thing, it blinks Lo before it
goes to -1EV or -2EV or whatever is specified in the manual, but
exposes ok (I tried again after the last discussion here, and, while
there were slight between exposures, they were of the same magnitude
as those that occur in manual mode-so probably aperture setting
inaccuracies etc).
 
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Neil Ellwood
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:26:59 -0500, Chico wrote:


> This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
> well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see what
> they say about it. Message posted read: My meter display reads LO or HI
> erroneously or way to soon in my opinion. LO and HI pop up in the
> display when proper exposures can still be made.


Please don't tell Rita.
--
Neil
reverse ra and delete l
Linux user 335851
 
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Floyd L. Davidson
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
Chico <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:26:59 -0500, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)>
>wrote:
>
>>I posted something similar recently and have now asked Nikon but
>>figured I would post here also in case someone may have a solution.
>>
>>This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
>>well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see
>>what they say about it. Message posted read:
>>My meter display reads LO or HI erroneously or way to soon in my
>>opinion. LO and HI pop up in the display when proper exposures can
>>still be made.
>>
>>My understanding is that LO means that the "picture will be
>>underexposed" if the user intends to stick with his selected F-Stop
>>(in A-mode) or Shutter Speed (in S-mode). The reason for underexposure
>>is because in A-mode, the camera has run out of shutter speeds (a
>>shutter speed greater than 30 seconds is required at the given
>>aperture). In S-mode, LO is displayed when the camera runs out of
>>F-Stops (the maximum aperture for that lens has been reached and you
>>still need to open up more to get the proper exposure). For HI, it
>>works the other way and overexposure results.
>>
>>Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
>>I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
>>the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
>>read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.
>>
>>Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
>>dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
>>f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
>>occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2 second. The
>>same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22 (at over 15
>>seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32, a shutter speed
>>greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds was required to make
>>the proper exposure.
>>
>>Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And that
>>shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to 3200 on the
>>D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure is a very
>>respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!
>>
>>Pictures taken at LO and HI seem to give good results. The display is
>>screwed up. However, it is very important to have these numbers
>>properly displayed so that the user can make decisions. For instance,
>>with landscape photography, most of my images are really slow and the
>>wind is always a factor. So, I really need to see the shutter speed
>>that's being chosen. And if A & S modes don't work properly, then it's
>>$1,800 for a camera that can only be used in Manual Exposure Mode.
>>
>>I purchased a Sekonic light meter yesterday but hope that I am just
>>doing something wrong and that the camera meter is not really this
>>inaccurate or unable to produce readings at what should be a very
>>respectful settings range.
>>

>Nikon Responded and said basically the following
>
>Nikon responded and said they are looking into it but that they
>beleive this is normal for the D300, D2X, D3, D70 and other DSLR
>cameras. They stated that their belief is that the LO in this case is
>evaluating the scenes overall exposure value such as -2EV. See page
>404.
>
>This is why we are getting LO. I think LO comes on in two
>circumstances when underexposure occurs and when the meter is
>returning a negative value (so it does not matter what ISO you choose)


In your previous thread I explained this more than once;
but I can see that you would not necessarily have
understood the technical discussion.

An exposure reading of -2 EV is outside the range of the
camera's light meter. It isn't the fact that it is a
negative number, as that is just part of the scale, much
the way -1 F is a temperature that just happens to be
lower than 0 F.

The light meter on your D300 is specified as from 0 to
20 EV, except with spot metering it is from 2 to 20 EV
(or, I assume that it is the same as the D3, which I
have a manual for).

The point is that a light level of -2 EV is lower than
the light meter can *accurately* read. It might in fact
give you a reading, but it will almost certainly
indicate more light than there actually is (because it
will also see a noise signal and add that to the light
that it reads).

For that reason the descriptions given in the Nikon
manuals, which all say that "Lo" means the picture will
be underexposed, is correct whether it is too little
light to read correctly or not enough range for ISO,
shutter speed or aperture.

I believe that if you redo your experiment with taking
readings from a dark area you can demonstrate that the
above is in fact true by actually taking a picture when
you are not at the maximum aperture but are getting
"Lo". If you then look at the Exif data it will
probably indicate 0 EV or lower.

>I am new so can someone translate this into english. I looked at page
>404 and it was not helpful I dont understand what I am looking at.
>
>Thanks


--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
 
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Gisle Hannemyr
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
Chico <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
> I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I
> set the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the
> exposure. It read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering
> method for this.


That is 4 EV.

> Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
> dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
> f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
> occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2
> second. The same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22
> (at over 15 seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32,
> a shutter speed greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds
> was required to make the proper exposure.


I performed the same test with my D80. When stopping down, it
gave set the right shutter speed until hitting 30 seconds.
Then it displayed LO. I belive that the D80's maximum is
also 30 seconds (beyond that, you need to use "bulb").

> Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And
> that shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to
> 3200 on the D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure
> is a very respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!


> Nikon Responded and said basically the following
>
> Nikon responded and said they are looking into it but that they
> beleive this is normal for the D300, D2X, D3, D70 and other DSLR
> cameras. They stated that their belief is that the LO in this case
> is evaluating the scenes overall exposure value such as -2EV. See
> page 404.


Decorum prohibits saying what I think about that respons. If you told
them how their camera metered the scene in manual mode, they should be
able to compute the EV of the scene - which is 4 EV, not -2 EV

The Exposure Metering Range of the D300 in 3D Matrix is supposed to
to operate 0-20 EV. Your scene is clearly within this limit.

See: http://nikonusa.com/template.php?cat...roductNr=25432
(Click "Tech Specs").

> This is why we are getting LO. I think LO comes on in two
> circumstances when underexposure occurs and when the meter is
> returning a negative value (so it does not matter what ISO you
> choose)


This is correct, but this does not explain why you are getting LO i
A mode. At f/4, 1/2 second should not cause underexposure. And since
the scene is 4 EV, the meter is not returning a negative value.
(Btw - there is nothing special about negative EV values, but the
lower limit of the D300 happens to be 0 EV.)

> I am new so can someone translate this into english. I looked at
> page 404 and it was not helpful I dont understand what I am looking
> at.


If you told them your exposure data in manual (ISO 200, 1/4s, f/2.,
they didn't listing. They are given you a some "standard" answer
that says that if your scene is darker than 0 EV, the meter will
say "LO". It will, but your scene is brighter (4 EV).

P. 404 of the D300 manual shows a graph of how "Programmed Auto" (P
mode) is set up. Since you are asking about A mode, it has nothing to
do with your question.


I haven't got a D300 , so I can't test this myself. Following your
test procedure on my D80 did not reproduce the problem.

If your observations are correct, there is a problem with the D300
exposure display. The good news is that the problem seems to be with
the display, and not with the metering. Nikon should be able to
resolve this with a firmware update,

--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikon D80, Kodak DCS 14n, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Gisle Hannemyr
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-12-2008
(E-Mail Removed) (Floyd L. Davidson) writes:
> Chico <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:


>> Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
>> I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
>> the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
>> read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.


> In your previous thread I explained this more than once;
> but I can see that you would not necessarily have
> understood the technical discussion.
>
> An exposure reading of -2 EV is outside the range of the
> camera's light meter.


Did you read the Chico's message?

He says that he is conducting the test on a scene where
the following texposure triangle yields the right exposure:
ISO 200, 1/4 second f/2.8.

That is 4 EV, not -2 EV (or any other value outside the range
that the D300/D3 exposure meter is supposed to handle.

> The light meter on your D300 is specified as from 0 to
> 20 EV, except with spot metering it is from 2 to 20 EV
> (or, I assume that it is the same as the D3, which I
> have a manual for).


Yes. So why is the display saying "LO" in aperture priority mode?
It is not out of range, and a shutter speed that will give the
right exposure will be in range up to f/22.

The OP claims that even f/4.0 make the camera display "LO".
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS 14n, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Sosumi
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-13-2008

"Chico" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:26:59 -0500, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>I posted something similar recently and have now asked Nikon but
>>figured I would post here also in case someone may have a solution.
>>
>>This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
>>well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see
>>what they say about it. Message posted read:
>>My meter display reads LO or HI erroneously or way to soon in my
>>opinion. LO and HI pop up in the display when proper exposures can
>>still be made.
>>
>>My understanding is that LO means that the "picture will be
>>underexposed" if the user intends to stick with his selected F-Stop
>>(in A-mode) or Shutter Speed (in S-mode). The reason for underexposure
>>is because in A-mode, the camera has run out of shutter speeds (a
>>shutter speed greater than 30 seconds is required at the given
>>aperture). In S-mode, LO is displayed when the camera runs out of
>>F-Stops (the maximum aperture for that lens has been reached and you
>>still need to open up more to get the proper exposure). For HI, it
>>works the other way and overexposure results.
>>
>>Okay, so I performed the following test that you may want to try:
>>I set my camera on a tripod and aimed it at a fairly dark wall. I set
>>the camera in Manual Mode at ISO 200 and balanced the exposure. It
>>read 1/4 second @ f/2.8. You can use any metering method for this.
>>
>>Then, I switched the camera over to Aperture Priority (A mode) and
>>dialed the aperture dial to smaller and smaller apertures (higher
>>f-numbers) until "LO" was displayed. It didn't take long. This
>>occurred when it hit f/4. Yes, f/4 at what should be 1/2 second. The
>>same test with my N90s and F5 go all the way to f22 (at over 15
>>seconds) until finally displaying LO at f/32. At f/32, a shutter speed
>>greater than the camera's maximum of 30 seconds was required to make
>>the proper exposure.
>>
>>Moreover, increasing the ISO doesn't improve things either. And that
>>shouldn't matter anyway. But, when I cranked up the ISO to 3200 on the
>>D300, LO was still displayed at f/4. But, the exposure is a very
>>respectable 1/30 second @ f/4. Whoa!
>>
>>Pictures taken at LO and HI seem to give good results. The display is
>>screwed up. However, it is very important to have these numbers
>>properly displayed so that the user can make decisions. For instance,
>>with landscape photography, most of my images are really slow and the
>>wind is always a factor. So, I really need to see the shutter speed
>>that's being chosen. And if A & S modes don't work properly, then it's
>>$1,800 for a camera that can only be used in Manual Exposure Mode.
>>
>>I purchased a Sekonic light meter yesterday but hope that I am just
>>doing something wrong and that the camera meter is not really this
>>inaccurate or unable to produce readings at what should be a very
>>respectful settings range.
>>

> Nikon Responded and said basically the following
>
> Nikon responded and said they are looking into it but that they
> beleive this is normal for the D300, D2X, D3, D70 and other DSLR
> cameras. They stated that their belief is that the LO in this case is
> evaluating the scenes overall exposure value such as -2EV. See page
> 404.
>
> This is why we are getting LO. I think LO comes on in two
> circumstances when underexposure occurs and when the meter is
> returning a negative value (so it does not matter what ISO you choose)
>
> I am new so can someone translate this into english. I looked at page
> 404 and it was not helpful I dont understand what I am looking at.


Since I have the D300 also, I was interested in this "bug". So I pointed the
camera to a wall in night time with low light, until it had 1.8 at 1/4 sec.
Then shifted down all the way to f22. No problem. ISO 200. The same at 1 sec
at f1.8 ISO 200. I could go all the way down to f10 when it hit 30 secs.
AFTER that it even keeps going one under exposure stripe at a time until
these are full.
In other words: perfect, at least I think so.

I don't know if it makes sense, but could it be the lens? Since they have a
CPU (at least they should) maybe there is the problem? I have a Nikon 1.8 50
mm AF D lens. I could see some problem with a defective or incompatible
lens.

If not, I think you just have a Monday morning model
In general the exposure of the D300 is fantastic. If something is wrong,
it's my mistake, I'm sure.

If you have any other questions or want me to do some tests, let me know,
I'll be glad to help.

Good luck!

--
Sosumi


 
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Rob-L
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-13-2008
It was written so well, that you used the word "to" instead of "too" in
the very first sentence.

lol


On Jan 12 2008 10:26 AM, Chico wrote:

> This is bugging me bad so I edited the orignal post which was written
> well and submitted it directly to Nikon Technical Support lets see
> what they say about it. Message posted read:
> My meter display reads LO or HI erroneously or way to soon in my
> opinion. LO and HI pop up in the display when proper exposures can
> still be made.


__________________________________________________ ____________________*
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com

 
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C J Campbell
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Posts: n/a
 
      01-13-2008
On 2008-01-12 10:26:59 -0800, Chico <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

> I posted something similar recently and have now asked Nikon but
> figured I would post here also in case someone may have a solution.


Well, I tried your experiment on my D300 and it gives me a much wider
range of apertures. I think Nikon misunderstood your question -- page
404 of the manual has to do with P mode.

I think your camera is malfunctioning. I cannot duplicate your test
results with either the D300 or D200. It is almost as if your camera
believes that the built-in flash is on (see p. 405 of the manual).

I think you need to have a technician look at your camera.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

 
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