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Allistar
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      08-09-2007
Mark Robinson wrote:

> Allistar wrote:
>> Mark Robinson wrote:
>>> Allistar wrote:
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter is probably referring to either KIOSlaves in KDE, of the
>>>>>>>> ability to mount a remote folder (of type "ftp"). Google for "Linux
>>>>>>>> mount" or "FTP KIOSlave" for more information
>>>>>>> By the way, note that you should only be using FTP for anonymous
>>>>>>> (i.e. public) downloads. If you need to authenticate, then FTP is
>>>>>>> fundamentally insecure, since it sends plain-text passwords over the
>>>>>>> connection. In that case, use SFTP (part of SSH) instead.
>>>>>> Yes indeed. I often do FTP over a forwarded SSH port, giving the same
>>>>>> benefit.
>>>>> Wouldn't it be simpler to just use SFTP?
>>>> Yes, but I don't administer the remote server and there's no SFTP
>>>> server running. I do have SSH access though.
>>> fish://server/ works in konqueror

>>
>> It's not that simple in this case:
>>
>> I do all of this through a gateway server (not running the FTP server). I
>> forward an SSH port from my local machine to the FTP server via the
>> gateway server. I cannot directly see the FTP server (for ssh that is)
>> from here.

>
> fish uses ssh rather than ftp or sftp.


I know, but I have no direct ssh access to the FTP server. I can forward a
port from another machine to get to it though.

Allistar.
 
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Allistar
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      08-09-2007
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
> wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Allistar
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter is probably referring to either KIOSlaves in KDE, of the
>>>>>>>> ability to mount a remote folder (of type "ftp"). Google for "Linux
>>>>>>>> mount" or "FTP KIOSlave" for more information
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way, note that you should only be using FTP for anonymous
>>>>>>> (i.e. public) downloads. If you need to authenticate, then FTP is
>>>>>>> fundamentally insecure, since it sends plain-text passwords over the
>>>>>>> connection. In that case, use SFTP (part of SSH) instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes indeed. I often do FTP over a forwarded SSH port, giving the same
>>>>>> benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't it be simpler to just use SFTP?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but I don't administer the remote server and there's no SFTP
>>>> server running. I do have SSH access though.
>>>
>>> Yes, but SFTP is a standard feature of SSH.

>>
>> See my response to Mark to see why it's not that simple.

>
> But once you have the SSH port forwarded, then everything available
> through SSH becomes accessible through that, including SFTP. SFTP doesn't
> use its own port, it just piggybacks on SSH, port 22.


Indeed, but I see no point in SFTP'ing through an SSH connection. That would
be encryption on top of encryption. Which is why I FTP through an SSH
connection instead. A diagram would help, but this medium makes that
difficult.

Allistar.
 
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Shane
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      08-09-2007
Allistar wrote:

> Shane wrote:
>
>> Allistar wrote:
>>
>>> peterwn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Miguel wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:00:23 +1200, peterwn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Dewhurst wrote:
>>>>>>> Are there any free FTP programs around? I used to have one in a
>>>>>>> Windows 95 machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes Linux / Gnome. The distant FTP site is a folder on the desktop
>>>>>> and you can simply drag files in and out just as if it were on the
>>>>>> same computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Peter...If it's not too much trouble can you expand on that
>>>>> please.
>>>>
>>>> Gnome provides GUI interfaces for this purpose (I use Gnome under
>>>> Debian
>>>> Etch for almost everything). Assuming the 'distant' computer has the
>>>> appropriate 'server' end software running, and appropriate settings you
>>>> can interact with any of the usual modes ie smb, ftp, secure ftp, scp,
>>>> etc. The GUI interface invokes the corresponding 'client' software. A
>>>> password if needed can be entered on each occasion or kept on the Gnome
>>>> 'keyring'. Naturally you would use the most secure method - I use scp
>>>> if available on the distant machine. It is brilliant.
>>>>
>>>> All needed software is on the Debian Etch first DVD and most if not all
>>>> on the first CD.
>>>
>>> I have noticed FTP is much faster than scp for downloading large files.
>>> And this isn't a CPU constraint - the machines at both ends are powerful
>>> enough. E.g. I can FTP a file from a server at 600kB/s, but the same
>>> file from the same server using scp would only be about 250kB/s. Maybe
>>> the scp protocol sends smaller chunks, so more replies need to be sent,
>>> and on a 80ms latency connection could explain the difference. I
>>> wouldn't have thought so though.
>>>
>>> Allistar.

>>
>> Overhead due to encryption would be?

>
> I doubt it. My box is a quad core 2.66GHz box with 2GB 800MHz memory,
> which I would think is up to the task (when scping the file the CPU usage
> barely moves off 1%). The receiving machine is a single core 3.06GHz
> machine with 3GB of memory. CPU usage is similarly low.
>
> I've noticed a similar thing across a LAN as well.
>
> Allistar.


Perhaps, but I was talking about change in the amount of traffic.
Run tcpdump and send a single unencrypted character over a telnet session
(to emulate ftp).
Do the same for ssh (to emulate scp) and see the difference.

--
Q: Why do mathematicians often confuse Christmas and Halloween?
A: Because Oct 31 = Dec 25.

 
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Rob S
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      08-09-2007
Sftp can be used over a number of connection protocols, ssh being just
one, albeit the most common. From the wikipedia page on ssh file
transfer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSH_file_transfer_protocol

"The term SFTP can also refer to Secure file transfer program, a
command-line program that implements the client part of this protocol,
such as that supplied with OpenSSH.

The sftp program provides an interactive interface similar to that of
traditional FTP clients.

Some implementations of the scp program actually use the SFTP protocol
to perform file transfers; however, some such implementations are still
able to fallback to the SCP protocol if the server does not provide SFTP
service."

Sftp can also be used with other connection protocols, e.g. Secure
Internet Live Conferencing (SILC)

See http://winscp.net/eng/docs/protocols...col_comparison for some
interesting info, especially sftp vs ftp and scp Sftp is - "Generally
slowest (encryption and necessity to wait for packet confirmations)."

Sftp has advantages that may negate the slower transfer speed, depending
on your own needs. It has all of the file and directory handling tools
of ftp, including interruption and resumption of transfer, which scp
does not support. It can also be implimented in a GUI client, i.e.
Konqueror.

So, unless you know which version of SSH is running on the server you
are connecting to, you may actually be using the slower sftp protocol
when you scp a file.

--

Rob
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http://www.aspir8or.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


If Bill Gates had a dime for every time a Windows box crashed...oh, wait
a minute - he already does.
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Miguel
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      08-09-2007
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:21:08 +1200, peterwn wrote:

> Miguel wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:00:23 +1200, peterwn wrote:
>>
>>> Roger Dewhurst wrote:
>>>> Are there any free FTP programs around? I used to have one in a
>>>> Windows 95 machine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes Linux / Gnome. The distant FTP site is a folder on the desktop
>>> and you can simply drag files in and out just as if it were on the
>>> same computer.

>>
>> Hello Peter...If it's not too much trouble can you expand on that
>> please.

>
> Gnome provides GUI interfaces for this purpose (I use Gnome under Debian
> Etch for almost everything). Assuming the 'distant' computer has the
> appropriate 'server' end software running, and appropriate settings you
> can interact with any of the usual modes ie smb, ftp, secure ftp, scp,
> etc. The GUI interface invokes the corresponding 'client' software. A
> password if needed can be entered on each occasion or kept on the Gnome
> 'keyring'. Naturally you would use the most secure method - I use scp
> if available on the distant machine. It is brilliant.
>
> All needed software is on the Debian Etch first DVD and most if not all
> on the first CD.


Hello again Peter...Thanks for the explanation. Shame I'm not using Etch
or Gnome (Kubuntu Feisty)

Mark R mentioned KDE fish(?) and Allistar mentioned KIOSlaves so I guess
that's enough to start playing around with.

Regards
Miguel
 
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