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Have Free Software ideologues lost the plot?

 
 
impossible
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
GPL3 is creating some sharp divisions in the open-source community. Richard
Stallaman's Free Software Foundation, which is never inclined to trifle with
business practicalities, revels in the new licensing provisions intended to
bar "TiVo-ization" of code and Microsoft/Novell-type patent-protection
deals. But not everyone, it seems, is enthralled with this approach, since
it runs the risk of alienating customers who prefer to base their IT
decisions on less ideological foundations. Linus Torvalds, for one, went on
record from the outset of the GPL3 debate as stating that the Linux kernel
would not be released under the revised licensing scheme, because it imposed
impractical restrictions on both developers and end users. I believe
Torvalds has since conceded that it might be possible to release 2 versions
of the Linux kernel -- one under GPL2 and one under GPL3 -- but he
cautions against the maintenance nightmare this would create. Authors of all
the GPL'd drivers, utilities, and applications packaged with the various
distros face a similar problem now in apparently having to either "choose
sides" in this debate--GPL2 or GPL3-- or else straddle the fence and inherit
an unwanted versioning burden. And you thought the compliance costs of
administering proprietary EULA's were bad! No matter how excited some
peoople get at the prospect of tweaking Microsft's nose, I think that in the
final analysis it is open source development that is really going to be
screwed over by GPL3.


 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      07-10-2007
Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North America
<http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.
 
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impossible
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      07-10-2007
"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
news:f6ukac$mub$...
> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North America
> <http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.


You need to turn off your knee-jerk change-the-subject switch, Lawrence.
What's the matter? Nothing to say about the debate in the open-source
community over GPL3?


 
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Nik Coughlin
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      07-10-2007
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North
> America
> <http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.


I think it's more reflective of a gradual shift from client side to web
applications.

Just read the article, yep seems to agree with me.


 
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JohnO
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      07-10-2007
On Jul 10, 12:38 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North America
> <http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCH...>.
> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.


Didn't say they were down. It said the number targetting was down.
I.e. a reducing growth rate. If 64% are targetting Windows then less
than 36% are targetting Linux so the absolute numbers state that the
difference in number of Windows programmers over Linux programmers
will continue to *increase* for the time being.

 
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peterwn
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
impossible wrote:
> GPL3 is creating some sharp divisions in the open-source community. Richard
> Stallaman's Free Software Foundation, which is never inclined to trifle with
> business practicalities, revels in the new licensing provisions intended to
> bar "TiVo-ization" of code and Microsoft/Novell-type patent-protection
> deals. But not everyone, it seems, is enthralled with this approach, since
> it runs the risk of alienating customers who prefer to base their IT
> decisions on less ideological foundations. Linus Torvalds, for one, went on
> record from the outset of the GPL3 debate as stating that the Linux kernel
> would not be released under the revised licensing scheme, because it imposed
> impractical restrictions on both developers and end users. I believe
> Torvalds has since conceded that it might be possible to release 2 versions
> of the Linux kernel -- one under GPL2 and one under GPL3 -- but he
> cautions against the maintenance nightmare this would create.


No big deal here. It does not really matter if Linus and his team stick
to GPL2. in any case, Linus has in a 'preamble' indicated his
interpretation of GPL2 which differs from how others may interpret it.


> Authors of all
> the GPL'd drivers, utilities, and applications packaged with the various
> distros face a similar problem now in apparently having to either "choose
> sides" in this debate--GPL2 or GPL3-- or else straddle the fence and inherit
> an unwanted versioning burden. And you thought the compliance costs of
> administering proprietary EULA's were bad! No matter how excited some
> peoople get at the prospect of tweaking Microsft's nose, I think that in the
> final analysis it is open source development that is really going to be
> screwed over by GPL3.
>


It is really over to the individual authors and maintainer groups.

There may be 'sharp divisions', and they may be in public, but this is
the nature of running a bazaar, as distinct from a cathedral where the
Dean and Chapter must have comprehensive control over the facility.

The licences do not cause any problems to those wanting to write code
and contribute it back to the community under GPL.

OK, it is troublesome to those who do not wish to disclose source code
or want to keep their code proprietary, but depending on their needs and
markets, they would need to take the trouble to work around these
strictures. This applies to driver writers too, they can make
commercial decisions as need be, noting in particular that they are in
the hardware market.

 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
In message < .com>, JohnO
wrote:

> On Jul 10, 12:38 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
> central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North America
>>

<http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
>> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.

>
> Didn't say they were down. It said the number targetting was down.
> I.e. a reducing growth rate.


From the article:

...Andrews said his firm has been tracking where North American
developers invest most of their time and effort for eight years and
their interest in Windows peaked in 2004. That year, they devoted 76% of
their efforts to the Windows platform, both server and desktop versions.

In a two-month survey of 440 developers completed June 30, Evans found
that 64.8% were targeting Windows, down from the 70% to 74% level that
the Microsoft platform recorded in the 2006 surveys.

That's a reduction in the actual _number_ of developers, not in the growth
of number of developers. That is, growth in Windows developers is
_negative_. Windows development is not growing, it's shrinking.
 
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Shane
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
impossible wrote:

> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
> news:f6ukac$mub$...
>> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North America
>>

<http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
>> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.

>
> You need to turn off your knee-jerk change-the-subject switch, Lawrence.
> What's the matter? Nothing to say about the debate in the open-source
> community over GPL3?


What debate?
The fact someone can choose to release their software under _any_ license
they choose?
The fact that there is nothing on earth to stop people writing their own
license?
Or the fact that some people who release their software under one version of
someone elses license, will not be changing to a new version of that
license.

--
Q: What's yellow and equivalent to the Axiom of Choice?
A: Zorn's Lemon.

 
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impossible
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
"peterwn" <> wrote in message
news:4692eef5$...
> impossible wrote:
>> GPL3 is creating some sharp divisions in the open-source community.
>> Richard Stallaman's Free Software Foundation, which is never inclined to
>> trifle with business practicalities, revels in the new licensing
>> provisions intended to bar "TiVo-ization" of code and
>> Microsoft/Novell-type patent-protection deals. But not everyone, it
>> seems, is enthralled with this approach, since it runs the risk of
>> alienating customers who prefer to base their IT decisions on less
>> ideological foundations. Linus Torvalds, for one, went on record from the
>> outset of the GPL3 debate as stating that the Linux kernel would not be
>> released under the revised licensing scheme, because it imposed
>> impractical restrictions on both developers and end users. I believe
>> Torvalds has since conceded that it might be possible to release 2
>> versions of the Linux kernel -- one under GPL2 and one under GPL3 --
>> but he cautions against the maintenance nightmare this would create.

>
> No big deal here. It does not really matter if Linus and his team stick
> to GPL2. in any case, Linus has in a 'preamble' indicated his
> interpretation of GPL2 which differs from how others may interpret it.
>


Yes, but Torvald's objections to GPL3 are more substantive, don't you think?
There is a world of difference between GPL2 and GPL3 when it comes to
restricting what developers and end users can do, and this is his concern.

>
>> Authors of all the GPL'd drivers, utilities, and applications packaged
>> with the various distros face a similar problem now in apparently having
>> to either "choose sides" in this debate--GPL2 or GPL3-- or else straddle
>> the fence and inherit an unwanted versioning burden. And you thought the
>> compliance costs of administering proprietary EULA's were bad! No matter
>> how excited some peoople get at the prospect of tweaking Microsft's nose,
>> I think that in the final analysis it is open source development that is
>> really going to be screwed over by GPL3.

>
> It is really over to the individual authors and maintainer groups.
>
> There may be 'sharp divisions', and they may be in public, but this is the
> nature of running a bazaar, as distinct from a cathedral where the Dean
> and Chapter must have comprehensive control over the facility.
>
> The licences do not cause any problems to those wanting to write code and
> contribute it back to the community under GPL.


Well, if someone writes code and releases it under GPL3, then it **may** be
a problem for developers and users downstream -- I think that's the whole
point.

>
> OK, it is troublesome to those who do not wish to disclose source code or
> want to keep their code proprietary, but depending on their needs and
> markets, they would need to take the trouble to work around these
> strictures. This applies to driver writers too, they can make commercial
> decisions as need be, noting in particular that they are in the hardware
> market.
>


Yes, but now you're talking about virtually everyone who makes a living from
open source development, so this is no small issue. I guess we'll just have
to see how things play out.


 
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impossible
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2007
"Shane" <> wrote in message
news:f6v0c3$bq9$...
> impossible wrote:


> GPL3 is creating some sharp divisions in the open-source community.
> Richard
> Stallaman's Free Software Foundation, which is never inclined to trifle
> with
> business practicalities, revels in the new licensing provisions intended
> to
> bar "TiVo-ization" of code and Microsoft/Novell-type patent-protection
> deals. But not everyone, it seems, is enthralled with this approach, since
> it runs the risk of alienating customers who prefer to base their IT
> decisions on less ideological foundations. Linus Torvalds, for one, went
> on
> record from the outset of the GPL3 debate as stating that the Linux kernel
> would not be released under the revised licensing scheme, because it
> imposed
> impractical restrictions on both developers and end users. I believe
> Torvalds has since conceded that it might be possible to release 2
> versions
> of the Linux kernel -- one under GPL2 and one under GPL3 -- but he
> cautions against the maintenance nightmare this would create. Authors of
> all
> the GPL'd drivers, utilities, and applications packaged with the various
> distros face a similar problem now in apparently having to either "choose
> sides" in this debate--GPL2 or GPL3-- or else straddle the fence and
> inherit
> an unwanted versioning burden. And you thought the compliance costs of
> administering proprietary EULA's were bad! No matter how excited some
> peoople get at the prospect of tweaking Microsft's nose, I think that in
> the
> final analysis it is open source development that is really going to be
> screwed over by GPL3.
>
>
>
>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
>> news:f6ukac$mub$...
>>> Numbers developing for Windows noticeably down, at least in North
>>> America
>>>

> <http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=HOKIQZCHFM1AEQSNDLOSK H0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=200900215>.
>>> Platform showing largest measurable increase is Linux.

>>
>> You need to turn off your knee-jerk change-the-subject switch, Lawrence.
>> What's the matter? Nothing to say about the debate in the open-source
>> community over GPL3?

>
> What debate?
> The fact someone can choose to release their software under _any_ license
> they choose?
> The fact that there is nothing on earth to stop people writing their own
> license?
> Or the fact that some people who release their software under one version
> of
> someone elses license, will not be changing to a new version of that
> license.
>


It's always a good idea to read the OP and not Lawrence's edited version,
which in this case deleted the original post entirely (a childish habit of
his). For your convenience I've restored the OP, which summarizes the debate
I was referring to. The answers to your rhetorical questions are, of course
no, no, and no -- that's not what I meant.


 
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