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Xtra's slow Broadband feeds & speeds

 
 
Colin V. Smith
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006

Hi

Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
turned to custard.

I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.

Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
that right?

I subscribe to Giganews because Xtra, the mean spirited sods, dropped
serving out Usenet services.

news.giganews.com

1 216.196.98.6 (216.196.98.6) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
2 g3-16.gw2.dca.giganews.com (216.196.96.61) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
3 ge3-4.fr3.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.173) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
4 tge1-16-1.ar1.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.177) 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms
5 so1-6-2.ar1.atl1.llnw.net (69.28.171.17 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms
6 so1-6-1.ar1.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.161) 36 ms 37 ms 36 ms
7 ge1-4.fr3.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.134) 36 ms 36 ms 40 ms
8 ge1-2.fr3.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.129) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
9 ge2-1.fr4.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.102) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
10 ge2-1.fr3.phx1.llnw.net (69.28.171.89) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
11 ge1-2.fr3.lax.llnw.net (69.28.171.82) 73 ms 75 ms 74 ms
12 tnzi-ggis.tzni.com (206.223.123.6) 74 ms 73 ms 73 ms
13 * so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 73 ms 74 ms
14 so2-2-3.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.77) 198 ms 198 ms
198 ms
15 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 198 ms
so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 198 ms
so-0-2-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.33) 198 ms
16 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 199 ms
199 ms 199 ms
17 * * *
18 * * *
19 * * *
Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)
news-europe.giganews.com

1 216-196-110-3.ams.giganews.com (216.196.110.3) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
2 216-196-108-122.ams.giganews.com (216.196.108.122) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
3 10ge-3-0-0.ams22.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.75.113) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
4 so-2-0-0.nyc33.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.81.197) 84 ms 87 ms 80 ms
5 sl-gw29-nyc-13-0.sprintlink.net (160.81.43.101) 80 ms 80 ms 80 ms
6 sl-bb24-nyc-15-1.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.17) 80 ms 81 ms 80 ms
7 sl-bb21-nyc-6-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.186) 81 ms 80 ms 80 ms
8 sl-bb27-pen-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.97) 85 ms 85 ms 85 ms
9 sl-bb22-pen-8-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.16.53) 86 ms 85 ms 85 ms
10 sl-bb21-fw-15-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.9.31) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
11 sl-bb25-fw-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.11.26) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
12 sl-bb21-ana-12-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.64) 161 ms 161 ms 162
ms
13 sl-st20-la-11-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.94) 164 ms 163 ms 163 ms
14 sl-newzeal-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.154.210) 153 ms 155 ms 161
ms
15 so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 157 ms 156 ms
156 ms
16 so2-2-1.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.17) 307 ms 307 ms
308 ms
17 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 304 ms
so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
18 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 325 ms
458 ms 326 ms
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Colin V. Smith
wrote:

> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.


There are two things worth measuring: one is ping times (as listed in your
traceroute), the other is percentage packet loss.

There is a handy screen-based tool called mtr, which shows you both measures
in a single display.

I have tried sending your results to Xtra to see what their explanation is?
 
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Craig Whitmore
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006

>
> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
> that right?
>


These show the latency on each hop between you and the servers. As the speed
of light is the limiting factor the latency between the USA and NZ is much
higher than the rest of the trip. Unless you can speed up light then there
is nothing wrong with that you are seeing on the webpage and your whole post
is moot.

Thanks
Craig
Talking for Myself


 
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Tony
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006
Colin V. Smith wrote:
> Hi
>
> Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
> about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
> can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
> flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
> happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
> turned to custard.
>
> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.
>
> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
> that right?


Those traces are fine, the issue is Xtra rate limits usenet at an
application layer. Ie they treat usenet like file sharing. The only way
to fix this is move to an ISP that suits your needs ! Move to
WorldXchange (xnet.co.nz) for adsl or SafeNZ (safenz.net) for dialup.
 
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David
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006
Colin V. Smith wrote:
> Hi
>
> Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
> about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
> can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
> flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
> happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
> turned to custard.
>
> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.
>
> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
> that right?
>
> I subscribe to Giganews because Xtra, the mean spirited sods, dropped
> serving out Usenet services.
>


Are you on Go Large? If you read the fair use agreement thingy it
specifically says that NNTP (usenet) will be
throttled/shaped/deprioritised as it is considered "file-sharing."
Change ISP. I changed to orcon after Xtra Went Large, and not only is
the speed awesome, but they have their own, free newsserver.
 
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Danny Boy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-25-2006
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:28:07 +1300, Tony
<(E-Mail Removed) > wrote:

>Colin V. Smith wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
>> about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
>> can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
>> flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
>> happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
>> turned to custard.
>>
>> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
>> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
>> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
>> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
>> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.
>>
>> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
>> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
>> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
>> that right?

>
>Those traces are fine, the issue is Xtra rate limits usenet at an
>application layer. Ie they treat usenet like file sharing. The only way
>to fix this is move to an ISP that suits your needs ! Move to
>WorldXchange (xnet.co.nz) for adsl or SafeNZ (safenz.net) for dialup.


Until recently I had a GigaNews subscription. I got it when Xtra
dropped Usenet. It went well until Xtra changed the plans a couple of
months ago. At the change GigaNews went dog, slow as slow. I was not
happy and got a free Motzarella account. I set up two instances of the
newsreader and compared Motzarella and GigaNews. GigaNews timed out
constantly and when it did hold a connection it took hours just to
refresh nz.general. Motzarella, even though sluggish to what I had
been used to, did at least allow me access to newsgroups.

How come Xtra allows Motzarella to work, albeit slowly, but almost
totally chokes GigaNews?
 
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Enkidu
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-26-2006
Colin V. Smith wrote:
> Hi
>
> Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
> about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
> can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
> flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
> happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
> turned to custard.
>
> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.
>
> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
> that right?
>
> I subscribe to Giganews because Xtra, the mean spirited sods, dropped
> serving out Usenet services.
>
> news.giganews.com
>
> 1 216.196.98.6 (216.196.98.6) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 2 g3-16.gw2.dca.giganews.com (216.196.96.61) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 3 ge3-4.fr3.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.173) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 4 tge1-16-1.ar1.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.177) 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms
> 5 so1-6-2.ar1.atl1.llnw.net (69.28.171.17 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms
> 6 so1-6-1.ar1.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.161) 36 ms 37 ms 36 ms
> 7 ge1-4.fr3.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.134) 36 ms 36 ms 40 ms
> 8 ge1-2.fr3.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.129) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 9 ge2-1.fr4.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.102) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 10 ge2-1.fr3.phx1.llnw.net (69.28.171.89) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 11 ge1-2.fr3.lax.llnw.net (69.28.171.82) 73 ms 75 ms 74 ms
> 12 tnzi-ggis.tzni.com (206.223.123.6) 74 ms 73 ms 73 ms
> 13 * so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 73 ms 74 ms
> 14 so2-2-3.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.77) 198 ms 198 ms
> 198 ms
> 15 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 198 ms
> so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 198 ms
> so-0-2-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.33) 198 ms
> 16 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 199 ms
> 199 ms 199 ms
> 17 * * *
> 18 * * *
> 19 * * *
> Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)
> news-europe.giganews.com
>
> 1 216-196-110-3.ams.giganews.com (216.196.110.3) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 2 216-196-108-122.ams.giganews.com (216.196.108.122) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 3 10ge-3-0-0.ams22.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.75.113) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 4 so-2-0-0.nyc33.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.81.197) 84 ms 87 ms 80 ms
> 5 sl-gw29-nyc-13-0.sprintlink.net (160.81.43.101) 80 ms 80 ms 80 ms
> 6 sl-bb24-nyc-15-1.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.17) 80 ms 81 ms 80 ms
> 7 sl-bb21-nyc-6-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.186) 81 ms 80 ms 80 ms
> 8 sl-bb27-pen-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.97) 85 ms 85 ms 85 ms
> 9 sl-bb22-pen-8-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.16.53) 86 ms 85 ms 85 ms
> 10 sl-bb21-fw-15-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.9.31) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
> 11 sl-bb25-fw-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.11.26) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
> 12 sl-bb21-ana-12-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.64) 161 ms 161 ms 162
> ms
> 13 sl-st20-la-11-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.94) 164 ms 163 ms 163 ms
> 14 sl-newzeal-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.154.210) 153 ms 155 ms 161
> ms
> 15 so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 157 ms 156 ms
> 156 ms
> 16 so2-2-1.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.17) 307 ms 307 ms
> 308 ms
> 17 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
> so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 304 ms
> so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
> 18 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 325 ms
> 458 ms 326 ms
> 19 * * *
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)


Those traces don't say much.
"MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz" is probably not even in
the country and the routers after that are not responding to pings".

Cheers,

Cliff

--

Have you ever noticed that if something is advertised as 'amusing' or
'hilarious', it usually isn't?
 
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NRENNIE
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-26-2006
Sorry that I can't help you with your problem, but can I get a bit of info
off you about Giganews?


Do they join the multiple binary files together? For example for a movie
they might have all the separate RAR files and also give you the option of
downloading the avi as a single complete file?

Reason I ask is that it is really fast and convenient to get movies/TV shows
in the one go. Easynews offer this but the trouble is that they have a
20GB/month data limit. Sounds a lot but with the average doco or movie
being anywhere between 700MB - 1.4GB, the data gets chewed up pretty fast.

Thanks,

Nick.


"Colin V. Smith" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> Hi
>
> Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
> about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
> can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
> flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
> happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
> turned to custard.
>
> I have rung Xtra and they have said that everything is all AOK. They
> told me to try my speed through their gaming site and the speed was,
> according to them, just fine. Well, when I go from there to the
> Giganews site and use their revese Reverse Traceroute
> http://www.giganews.com/line_info.html I get the reading below.
>
> Can some bright spark out there explain to me what it all means? I
> interperet it as the speeds are quite fast rattling around the planet
> until things hit Telecom's/Xtra's gateways, then things slow down. Is
> that right?
>
> I subscribe to Giganews because Xtra, the mean spirited sods, dropped
> serving out Usenet services.
>
> news.giganews.com
>
> 1 216.196.98.6 (216.196.98.6) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 2 g3-16.gw2.dca.giganews.com (216.196.96.61) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 3 ge3-4.fr3.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.173) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 4 tge1-16-1.ar1.iad.llnw.net (69.28.156.177) 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms
> 5 so1-6-2.ar1.atl1.llnw.net (69.28.171.17 17 ms 17 ms 17 ms
> 6 so1-6-1.ar1.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.161) 36 ms 37 ms 36 ms
> 7 ge1-4.fr3.dal.llnw.net (69.28.171.134) 36 ms 36 ms 40 ms
> 8 ge1-2.fr3.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.129) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 9 ge2-1.fr4.phx2.llnw.net (69.28.171.102) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 10 ge2-1.fr3.phx1.llnw.net (69.28.171.89) 64 ms 64 ms 64 ms
> 11 ge1-2.fr3.lax.llnw.net (69.28.171.82) 73 ms 75 ms 74 ms
> 12 tnzi-ggis.tzni.com (206.223.123.6) 74 ms 73 ms 73 ms
> 13 * so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 73 ms 74 ms
> 14 so2-2-3.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.77) 198 ms 198 ms
> 198 ms
> 15 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 198 ms
> so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 198 ms
> so-0-2-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.33) 198 ms
> 16 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 199 ms
> 199 ms 199 ms
> 17 * * *
> 18 * * *
> 19 * * *
> Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)
> news-europe.giganews.com
>
> 1 216-196-110-3.ams.giganews.com (216.196.110.3) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 2 216-196-108-122.ams.giganews.com (216.196.108.122) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 3 10ge-3-0-0.ams22.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.75.113) 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms
> 4 so-2-0-0.nyc33.ip.tiscali.net (213.200.81.197) 84 ms 87 ms 80 ms
> 5 sl-gw29-nyc-13-0.sprintlink.net (160.81.43.101) 80 ms 80 ms 80 ms
> 6 sl-bb24-nyc-15-1.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.17) 80 ms 81 ms 80 ms
> 7 sl-bb21-nyc-6-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.13.186) 81 ms 80 ms 80 ms
> 8 sl-bb27-pen-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.97) 85 ms 85 ms 85 ms
> 9 sl-bb22-pen-8-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.16.53) 86 ms 85 ms 85 ms
> 10 sl-bb21-fw-15-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.9.31) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
> 11 sl-bb25-fw-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.11.26) 123 ms 123 ms 123 ms
> 12 sl-bb21-ana-12-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.64) 161 ms 161 ms 162
> ms
> 13 sl-st20-la-11-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.94) 164 ms 163 ms 163 ms
> 14 sl-newzeal-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.154.210) 153 ms 155 ms 161
> ms
> 15 so2-0-0.labr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.101) 157 ms 156 ms
> 156 ms
> 16 so2-2-1.tkbr8.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.232.17) 307 ms 307 ms
> 308 ms
> 17 so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
> so3-0-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.193) 304 ms
> so-3-3-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (203.96.120.73) 304 ms
> 18 MDR-IP03e-3-1-0.akbr3.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.236.114) 325 ms
> 458 ms 326 ms
> 19 * * *
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> Max number of unresponsive hops reached (firewall or filter?)



 
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Danny Boy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-26-2006
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:45:00 +1300, "NRENNIE" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Sorry that I can't help you with your problem, but can I get a bit of info
>off you about Giganews?
>
>
>Do they join the multiple binary files together? For example for a movie
>they might have all the separate RAR files and also give you the option of
>downloading the avi as a single complete file?
>
>Reason I ask is that it is really fast and convenient to get movies/TV shows
>in the one go. Easynews offer this but the trouble is that they have a
>20GB/month data limit. Sounds a lot but with the average doco or movie
>being anywhere between 700MB - 1.4GB, the data gets chewed up pretty fast.
>

It is a pay subscriber thing - www.giganews.com - with a few different
plans. They have a 3 day trial on offer. Why don't you try it and see
if it might suit you? Let us know how it goes for you.
 
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Paul W
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-26-2006
Colin V. Smith <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>Hi
>
>Until a couple of months ago, about the time Xtra started bragging
>about the new age of all-you-want and downloads as fast as your line
>can handle, I could refresh Giganews headers and get bodies in a
>flash. I had absolutely no problems or excuses to complain. I was very
>happy with what I was getting. Since the flash changes things have
>turned to custard.


The problem is the go large plan Xtra have cut back the speed on a lot
of ports I have had the same problem I did find port 23 worked alot
better Try changing to that and set your news program to 10
connections Worked for me but have sinced dumped the go large
due to poor gaming and other services not working The other poster had
the best idea Change ISP's Inspire was always good with service +
bandwidth

Cheers -Paul

"Overclockers do it hotter and faster"
 
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