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International P2P badly shaped on Orcon 30GB FS

 
 
David
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      11-21-2006
Tony wrote:
>>
>> Yeah but they will probably add capacity, and it wouldn't be good
>> business to kill off the demand for that capacity with the
>> justification that it helps the copyright holders.
>> Its up to the copyright holders to monetize their assets, and the
>> telcos / isps to separately look after their own business.

>
>
> Yes, but you are missing the point. A Meg of wholesale international
> bandwidth costs in the range of $750/month. (more or less depending on
> how much you buy) If Joe downloader was allowed unlimited access a
> single user could easily account for a couple of megs of constant
> traffic. Now of the $50 he pays, $30 of that goes to Telecom to cover
> the last mile, that leaves $20 to cover all the ISP's costs including
> the $1000+ of bandwidth. As you can see without rate-limiting things it
> just does not add up, and P2P is the "villan" responsible for most of
> that excess of traffic, hence it's the part that gets limited.


But I'm paying for 30GB, and they seem quite happy to let me use that
30GB as fast as I want as long as I'm using HTTP. There's no difference
to their cost if I use that 30GB for P2P.
 
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Tony
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      11-21-2006
>
> But I'm paying for 30GB, and they seem quite happy to let me use that
> 30GB as fast as I want as long as I'm using HTTP. There's no difference
> to their cost if I use that 30GB for P2P.


Yes, but it's a LOT less likely a user will use their full allocation if
P2P is limited. Without P2P most users will do bugger all traffic. The
plans would not add up if every user used all their data, same as if
everyone tried to make a phone call at the time is would not work as the
over subscription of the trunks is a critical part of the business
model. Same as how voda builds into the business model the "free"
minutes that people don't use in their cellphone plans.
 
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David
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      11-21-2006
Tony wrote:
>>
>> But I'm paying for 30GB, and they seem quite happy to let me use that
>> 30GB as fast as I want as long as I'm using HTTP. There's no
>> difference to their cost if I use that 30GB for P2P.

>
> Yes, but it's a LOT less likely a user will use their full allocation if
> P2P is limited. Without P2P most users will do bugger all traffic. The
> plans would not add up if every user used all their data, same as if
> everyone tried to make a phone call at the time is would not work as the
> over subscription of the trunks is a critical part of the business
> model. Same as how voda builds into the business model the "free"
> minutes that people don't use in their cellphone plans.


Hmmm, well I'm paying for 30GB. If I don't get to use 30GB, I'll choose
a plan with a lower cap, like 15GB which is $20 less per month. Orcon
get less money.
 
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Earl Grey
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      11-21-2006
Tony wrote:
>>
>> Yeah but they will probably add capacity, and it wouldn't be good
>> business to kill off the demand for that capacity with the
>> justification that it helps the copyright holders.
>> Its up to the copyright holders to monetize their assets, and the
>> telcos / isps to separately look after their own business.

>
>
> Yes, but you are missing the point. A Meg of wholesale international
> bandwidth costs in the range of $750/month. (more or less depending on
> how much you buy) If Joe downloader was allowed unlimited access a
> single user could easily account for a couple of megs of constant
> traffic. Now of the $50 he pays, $30 of that goes to Telecom to cover
> the last mile, that leaves $20 to cover all the ISP's costs including
> the $1000+ of bandwidth. As you can see without rate-limiting things it
> just does not add up, and P2P is the "villan" responsible for most of
> that excess of traffic, hence it's the part that gets limited.


I get that.
Oversubscription is their business model
Traffic shaping is part of their business model.
My point is that it has _nothing_ to do with copyright
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      11-21-2006
In message <(E-Mail Removed)>, Phil wrote:

> steve wrote, On 19/11/06 10.51 p:
>
>> Not here. I typically download TV shows not shown in NZ.

>
> That doesn't make it any more legal.


Depends on what you think the actual wrong in copyright infringement is:
those who conflate it with "theft" seem to be thinking quite specifically
in terms of revenue loss.
 
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Stu Fleming
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      11-21-2006
David wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>> Yes, but you are missing the point. A Meg of wholesale international
>> bandwidth costs in the range of $750/month. (more or less depending on

>
> But I'm paying for 30GB, and they seem quite happy to let me use that
> 30GB as fast as I want as long as I'm using HTTP. There's no difference
> to their cost if I use that 30GB for P2P.


Yes, but there's a discrepancy between what the ISP buys (size of pipe)
and what the user wants (data) and what the pricing model is based on
(pipe plus data). The economics change when you go to flat rate
unlimited where you have to engineer your pipes and ratios.

($750/Mbps for international is fairly accurate BTW)
 
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-=rjh=-
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      11-26-2006
Tony wrote:
> -=rjh=- wrote:
>> Tony wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> stop stealing music and porn?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think this is a fair comment actually.

>>
>> Please explain why.

>
> 98% of P2P is for stealing music or movies yes ? (figure pulled of of
> thin air).


Figure definitely not pulled out of thin air, but from somewhere else,
I'd say. But still wrong. I assume from your comment that you aren't a
P2P user.

I'm a moderate BT user, and I'd say that probably >90% of what I
download is 100% legal. I'm speaking for myself, but if you have any
experience that backs up your 98% claim, do share...

I fail to see why so many people think that downloading music and movies
is illegal - I can only assume they've bought into the *IAA line that
presents this as illegal. Shows a real lack of imagination.

It isn't illegal; there is a vast amount of music that people want you
to download, so much in fact that it is impossible to keep up. It won't
be Top 40 and you'll probably never hear it on commercial radio, but
that's no bad thing. Of course, the *IAA don't want you to know about
this, and would prefer people unwittingly propagate their myth.
Meanwhile a whole generation of talented people get shut out because
they aren't interested in the *IAA's terms. Who made them the
gatekeepers? Why perpetuate this?

There is likewise a large amount of video content available for free.

For both of these media P2P is the preferred download method. Nothing
illegal about it.

Democracy Player and Juice both use BT behind the scenes, it is just a
protocol, like any other it can be used for legal and illegal purposes.

Going back a few years before P2P, HTTP might have been responsible for
a large proportion of ISP traffic. Would you have advocated restricting
its use then? After all, it is used mainly for looking at images and
pretty layouts and is used for commercial websites, which have no place
in the real internet, and would only get in the way of legitimate
traffic like email and usenet.

> The delivery mechanisms used to get "broadband" to your door
> (local and International) are a crap load more expensive than the
> average punter appreciates. If P2P is left to run at full speed the
> actual cost of delivering the service to the end user is MANY more times
> expensive than the retail rates. This means that EVERYBODY would need to
> pay more just so that SOME people could steal music and moves.


Last I heard, it wasn't illegal to listen to streaming radio stations,
last.fm or pandora, yet this can use as much bandwidth as P2P - do you
want to restrict that as well?

I actually agree that as a last resort, and only because it is not real
time, P2P could be shaped, but only as a last resort, and only temporarily.

The argument that you present that it doesn't matter because it is used
for (you think) illegal purposes is irrelevant, incorrect and abhorrent.

As I see it, ISPs are marketing something that they cannot possibly
provide at the price, blaming P2P is an easy out for them. And you've
bought into that argument, just like you bought into the *IAA myth.

Likewise, Telecom know that Max ADSL isn't feasible at present, but
they'd rather sell something that won't work and blame the customers
when it fails. And tell the government "See!"

 
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Brendan
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      11-29-2006
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:06:28 +1300, Tony wrote:

>> You can't have it both ways, either you are fully responsible or butt out.
>>
>> The burden of enforcing copyright belongs to the copyright holder, we
>> don't pay our isps to do their work for them.

>
> Well, making the service affordable at the sacrifice of mostly illegal
> traffic is the only way ISP's can provide such a service and stay in
> business.


No, the real solution is NOT to legislate less useage, but instead to
legislate MORE competition in supply of infrastructure. E.g. put Telecom
under the gun.

--

.... Brendan

#205195 +(3699)- [X]

<MortalKombat> stfu mat|t u cu.nt
* Acaila sets mode: +b MortalKombat!*@*
<@Acaila> FINISH HIM
<mat|t> rofl
<MortalKombat> omg wtf man
* MortalKombat was kicked by Acaila (forward, forward, back, back, forward,
punch)
<@Acaila> FATALITY!


Note: All my comments are copyright 29/11/2006 4:05:46 p.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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Brendan
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-29-2006
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:44:47 +1300, Tony wrote:

> Are you an ostrich ?


Are you a pussy?

If you are going to pick a fight, do so.

>You can't seriously suggest that stealing music and
> movies is not the prime motivator to use P2P ?


You cannot 'steal' movies and music over p2p. The legal definition is
'stealing' makes this impossible.

Never the less, I will answer your confusion: the 'prime motivator' is not
the point in debate here: the man was accused of doing this, I want to see
the proof.

Obviously there can be none so the accuser is liable under the Defamation
Act - and therefore nothing but an ignorant ass.

> Apart from using
> bittorrent to get the occasional linux iso, honestly the rest is most
> likely illegal.


Irrelevant and a matter of definition.

Also a matter YOU do not get to decide: that is the job of the Courts, and
ANYTHING you assert before such a judgement is handed down is actionable
under the Defamation Act.

My point here is simple: yet again the fucwits of this news group have
accused a man of breaking the law. And they have done so without viable
arguments - all they have is the most egregious supposition. It ridiculous.

Further arguments about the legality of p2p and the wider issues of IP law
are argued here daily. In summery on those arguments my point is
deceptively simple also: IP law is a ridiculous and destructive concept and
is increasingly un-enforcible.

--

.... Brendan

#50891 +(4604)- [X]

<Eticam> I was in biology class once, and the teacher said there was sugar
in sperm
<Eticam> And a girl asked why doesn't it taste sweet then
<Eticam> When she realised what she said her face became red like a spanked
monkey ass
<Eticam> Then the teacher said, because you taste sweetness with the front
of your tongue, not the part of your tongue back in your throat
<Eticam> The girl started crying and left class ^^


Note: All my comments are copyright 29/11/2006 3:54:55 p.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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