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NZ's knowledge economy

 
 
whome
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      09-27-2006
The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
knowledge economy here in NZ.

But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT teachers
get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/st...ectID=10403261

Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

New Zealand schools are facing a crisis as a lack of new recruits threaten
to collapse the technology curriculum, the Post Primary Teachers Association
says.

PPTA executive member Penney Dunckley told the union's annual conference
today technology teaching jobs represented nearly 20 per cent of all
secondary school vacancies.

Sixty two per cent of schools who responded to the PPTA's 2006 survey said
they couldn't recruit new technology teachers, and therefore teachers with
inappropriate qualifications were being asked to teach the subject.

In 2003, 'G3' teachers - whose vocational qualifications had previously been
considered equivalent to a bachelor's degree for pay purposes - were barred
from the top level of the teaching pay scale.

Ms Dunckley said higher salaries in the trades suggested the crisis would
worsen.

"The government says it is keen to encourage students to learn basic trade
skills as well as more advanced technology at school, but the length of time
taken to solve the G3 issue indicates the low priority placed on the real
needs of students and teachers."

- NZPA


 
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Phil
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      09-27-2006
whome wrote, On 27/09/06 10.12 p:
> The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
> knowledge economy here in NZ.


Didn't this die 2-3 years ago, about a week after they 'launched' it?

-Phil
 
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Peter Ashby
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      09-27-2006
whome <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
> knowledge economy here in NZ.
>
> But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT teachers
> get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.
>
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/st...ectID=10403261
>
> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers


Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
recruitment.

Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
time. Of course one solution is variable pay but this leads inevitably
to some teaching specialisms pulling way ahead of their colleagues as
pay hardly ever tends to go down...

Peter
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      09-27-2006
In message <1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%(E-Mail Removed)> , Peter Ashby
wrote:

> whome <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

>
> Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
> sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
> practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
> economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
> economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
> recruitment.


What you're describing is a badly out-of-phase feedback system. Where did
those qualified teachers get their qualifications from? They had to get
them from other teachers who were qualified, but who were somehow persuaded
not to leave teaching for jobs in industry.

If the only specialties you can get qualified teachers for are those that
are not in high demand in industry, then you're never going to get a
properly-qualified work force.

> Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
> time.


Statistically, that's only valid if there _is_ an average. Many time series
exist, including prices in economics, that have no long-term average.

 
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Peter Ashby
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      09-27-2006
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote:

> In message <1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%(E-Mail Removed)> , Peter Ashby
> wrote:
>
> > whome <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

> >
> > Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
> > sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
> > practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
> > economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
> > economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
> > recruitment.

>
> What you're describing is a badly out-of-phase feedback system. Where did
> those qualified teachers get their qualifications from? They had to get
> them from other teachers who were qualified, but who were somehow persuaded
> not to leave teaching for jobs in industry.


How can it be in phase? you not only need degree qualified teachers but
you need them to have teachng qualifications as well. So that is a
4-5year gap between demand and supply. Oh and if you want them to have
industry experience to pass on you can add more years to that. Govt
can't just snap its fingers and produce qualified, experienced staff
from nowhere.

> If the only specialties you can get qualified teachers for are those that
> are not in high demand in industry, then you're never going to get a
> properly-qualified work force.


Never? in what planet are you living? If you suck qualified tech
teachers out of the knowledge economy to teach what will that do for the
knowledge economy? Then where would that leave the industry? Honestly
people like you who can't think beyond simplistic knee jerk responses
shouldn't be trusted with the vote.

> > Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
> > time.

>
> Statistically, that's only valid if there _is_ an average. Many time series
> exist, including prices in economics, that have no long-term average.


Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
economics lesson from you.

Peter
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Earl Grey
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      09-27-2006
Peter Ashby wrote:
> Honestly
> people like you who can't think beyond simplistic knee jerk responses
> shouldn't be trusted with the vote.


Oh the irony
 
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Peter Huebner
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      09-27-2006
In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%(E-Mail Removed)> ,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...

> Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
> thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
> economics lesson from you.
>
> Peter
> --


Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other countries
where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and industry go back
to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because teaching is higher
regarded in society and better paid. I know this because I used to teach
education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back in Germany.

By comparison, if I look at the education system in this country, teachers are
under-educated, underpaid and suffer from relatively low respect in the
community and in some schools seem more like victims than being in charge. I
cannot believe the number of intermediate and secondary teachers (whom I have
encountered) who are barely two days ahead of their students in terms of
knowledge base. With an education system like that, how can we become a
'knowledge economy'? I often feel that many young people who manage to get an
education in this country do so despite the system, not because of it.

Certainly if you have well paid teachers with good education that they have
spent years acquiring in a system that works, they won't remotely be tempted to
go out into the industry. THAT is a symptom of a system that is inadequate.

I blame a great deal on David Lange, 'education minister', and 'Tomorrow's
Schools' that he came up with. Democracy is all very well, but who would put
the catering staff in charge of the running of the operations at a hospital?
Who would put the parents in the unenviable position of telling the
professionals how to run a school? Preposterous notion. I wouldn't want to work
in this system a twice the going rate.

-P.

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Peter Ashby
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      09-27-2006
Peter Huebner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%(E-Mail Removed)> ,
> (E-Mail Removed) says...
>
> > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
> > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
> > economics lesson from you.
> >
> > Peter
> > --

>
> Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other countries
> where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and industry go back
> to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because teaching is higher
> regarded in society and better paid. I know this because I used to teach
> education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back in Germany.


Au contraire, at the university dept my better half works in here in the
UK they have a major problem getting good lecturers in several areas
because they can get much more money working in the wider economy which
is very buoyant at the moment.

> By comparison, if I look at the education system in this country, teachers are
> under-educated, underpaid and suffer from relatively low respect in the
> community and in some schools seem more like victims than being in charge. I
> cannot believe the number of intermediate and secondary teachers (whom I have
> encountered) who are barely two days ahead of their students in terms of
> knowledge base. With an education system like that, how can we become a
> 'knowledge economy'? I often feel that many young people who manage to get an
> education in this country do so despite the system, not because of it.


My experience 20years ago was somewhat variable. Certainly I was taught
Chemistry by a Geography graduate who was certainly not ahead of me. At
the end of 7th form I gave up going to lessons and obviously took myself
off to the library, textbook under my arm during chermistry lessons. On
the other hand I can think of numerous very good teachers, in biology,
physics and english in particular. Large, multiracial, both sexes,
mainstream state school.

> Certainly if you have well paid teachers with good education that they
> have spent years acquiring in a system that works, they won't remotely be
> tempted to go out into the industry. THAT is a symptom of a system that is
> inadequate.


That is only true in those subjects where teachers cannot easily move
between the two. Thus we see the situation with technically qualified
teachers. My children inform me the same situation pertains here in the
UK wrt computing teachers. English teachers are not in short supply.

Peter

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whome
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      09-27-2006

"Peter Ashby" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%(E-Mail Removed) k...
> whome <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
>> knowledge economy here in NZ.
>>
>> But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT
>> teachers
>> get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.
>>
>> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/st...ectID=10403261
>>
>> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

>
> Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
> sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
> practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
> economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
> economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
> recruitment.
>
> Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
> time. Of course one solution is variable pay but this leads inevitably
> to some teaching specialisms pulling way ahead of their colleagues as
> pay hardly ever tends to go down...
>
> Peter
> --
> Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country


My point is that technology teachers cannot get the same pay level as their
peers. This seems wrong to me.


 
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Barry Lennox
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      09-27-2006
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:12:25 +1200, "whome" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
>knowledge economy here in NZ.
>


snip

As usual they are all talk and basically FITH. This started a few
years ago with jabber about the "knowledge wave" It was dropped within
a few months when they realised they had no clue about technology,
However, one of the final nails in the coffin was the layabout
pot-smokers being fooled by the oldest trick in a schoolboy's book (a
fancy name for water)

I do recall the days of Nelcon's and each year the poly's used to
send their "best" technology-oriented MP to open it. Every one was an
utter joke.
 
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