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The shutdown mystery solved? thanks to all

 
 
Dave Doe
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-04-2006
In article <1152049567.457085@ftpsrv1>, scrooge@*shot.co.nz says...
>
> "Brendan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bj8dsvm8cn95$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:09 +1200, Geopelia wrote:
> >
> >> The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an
> >> orange).
> >> It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
> >> Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
> >> think that is the same kind.

> >
> > Those surge protectors are of limited use. Some people even call them
> > scams.
> >
> > If they take a big enough hit, or enough smaller hits, they will stop
> > working and you will not know it. You'll be unprotected.
> >
> > They also do nothing for brown-outs.
> >
> > --
> >
> > ... Brendan

>
> If they stop working then that means they were working in the place.
>
> The indicator lights are meant to tell if they still work as surge
> protectors after taking a hit. If the light is no longer on then you know
> it's not working as before and you will know it.
>
> Cost of surge protector against cost of thousands of dollars of electronics.
> If they didn't do something to help they wouldn't be on the market, they
> have to do what they advertise. They even advertise on them that they no
> longer work after taking a good hit.
> The only scam round here is you.


I read that MacDonald's is really good for you.

--
Duncan
 
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Brendan
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006
On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:03:05 +1200, Dave Doe wrote:

>>> Those surge protectors are of limited use. Some people even call them
>>> scams.
>>>
>>> If they take a big enough hit, or enough smaller hits, they will stop
>>> working and you will not know it. You'll be unprotected.
>>>
>>> They also do nothing for brown-outs.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> ... Brendan

>>
>> If they stop working then that means they were working in the place.
>>
>> The indicator lights are meant to tell if they still work as surge
>> protectors after taking a hit. If the light is no longer on then you know
>> it's not working as before and you will know it.
>>
>> Cost of surge protector against cost of thousands of dollars of electronics.
>> If they didn't do something to help they wouldn't be on the market, they
>> have to do what they advertise. They even advertise on them that they no
>> longer work after taking a good hit.
>> The only scam round here is you.

>
> I read that MacDonald's is really good for you.


LOL, and you really HAVE won $1 million! Says so right here in the letter
in the mail box!

--

.... Brendan

#365072 +(4643)- [X]

<xxxGirlygirlxxx> Thank you for listening to me.
<xxxGirlygirlxxx> You know your a really good listener.
<xxxGirlygirlxxx> Sweety please say something.
<Sandaedar> Ok I'm back.


Note: All my comments are copyright 5/07/2006 11:22:06 a.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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geopelia
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006

w_tom wrote:
> Geopelia wrote:
> > The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an orange).
> > It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
> > Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
> > think that is the same kind.

>
> Those lights only indicate failure when the failure is a type that
> must never happen. Meanwhile, other failure modes remain unreported.
>
> A protector must earth direct transients and remain effective.
> However, to sell protectors on myths, then many are intentionally
> undersized so that a homeowner will assume, "The protector sacrificed
> itself to save my computer". Such protectors failed prematurely AND
> left protection inside the appliance to protect electronics. Some
> surges too small to harm a computer will still destroy an undersized
> plug-in protector. It promotes more sales.
>
> Protectors are essentially a maybe $3 power strip with some $0.10
> parts inside. Active component is called an MOV. MOVs must never fail
> by vaporizing or shorting. An MOV manufacturer demonstrates how MOVs
> work:
> > The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse ...
> > is applies 10,000 times continuously with the interval of
> > tens seconds at room temperature.

>
> Does this sound like a device intended to fail on the first surge?
> Does this sound like a device intended to absorb the entire energy of a
> surge? Of course not. That is not what shunt mode protectors do. As
> Vb changes, then the MOV degrades. It must not vaporize as so often
> happens to promote grossly undersized plug-in protectors. It must
> degrade.
>
> Effective shunt mode protectors do same a Ben Franklin demonstrated
> in 1752. Lightning will seek earth ground destructively via a church
> steeple. Franklin simply gave lightning a non-destructive path to
> earth. We don't stop or absorb surges. We shunt them to earth on
> paths that are not destrutive. No shunt to earth and typically
> destructive surges will find earth ground via household appliances.
> Shunt mode protectors are effective with a less than 3 meter connection
> to earth.
>
> Down at the telephone Central Office is how effective protection
> works - as was standard even long before WWII. Every incoming wire on
> every cable connects to earth ground. A connection made by hard wire
> or made via a 'whole house' type protector. Shunt mode protectors
> earth. A shunt mode protector without earthing is not effective.
>
> So instead we take that $3 power strip, add some $0.10 components,
> and hype it as a miracle solution to the naive. Review for yourself.
> Where in its numerical specs does that plug-in protector even claim
> protection from each type of transient? It does not. Why do its own
> specs forget to claim protection from the typically destructive
> transient?
>
> Two important numbers are joules and let-through voltage. Joules
> defines a protector's life expectancy. A number used in charts to
> determine number of transients and size of those transients before a
> protector degrades. Not fail. Properly sized protectors always remain
> functional and only degrade. A grossly undersized protector (too few
> joules) is destroyed by only one surge - ineffective.
>
> Look for the let-through or threshold voltage on that protector. For
> 240 VAC, thern may be maybe 500+ volts. Any 'noise' created by
> household appliances (refrigerator, vacumm cleaner, etc) is completely
> ignored by a protector. Protection inside all appliances makes that
> 'noise' irrelevant. The protector is for a transient that might
> otherwise overwhelm internal appliance protection. Therefore every
> incoming utility wire (cable TV, telephone, AC electric) must be
> earthed, less than 3 meters, to a common earth ground. Telephone and
> AC electric require protectors to make that earthing connection. Cable
> TV makes that earthing connection using ground block and hardwire. If
> all incoming utilities are properly earthed, then a transient that may
> overwhelm internal appliance protection is made irrelevant.
>
> This applies to all incoming utilities - overhead or underground.
> What makes a shunt mode protector effective is earthing. No earth
> ground means no effective protection. So plug-in protector don't even
> discuss earthing - a hope you don't learn about the most critical
> component in a protection system: single point earth ground.
>
> Meanwhile look what happens to those lights on a protector where all
> MOVs are removed. The lights remain on because those lights actually
> do not report a protector as effective. Those lights will only report
> one type of failure. If that one type failure occurs, then the
> protector was grossly undersized - just another reason why the plug-in
> protector was ineffective:
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
>
> Protector was completely destroyed - "All 6 MOVs removed" - and still
> those lights say protector is OK. Effective protectors, instead, earth
> transients so that protection inside an appliance is not overwhelmed.



I don't understand much of that. I just hope the loss of power didn't
do any harm. Everything is working.

When our shed got struck by lightning, it went down the aerial, charred
its way along a beam, and came out through the metal band on the water
barrel.

Since they built the Mormon church, we hope the lightning conductor on
that will catch any stray bolts.

 
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w_tom
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006
There are surge protectors that work; and others that are sold on a
myth that surge 'protectors' and surge 'protection' are same. Any
protector so grossly undersized - "If the light is no longer on then
you know " - protector was grossly undersize. Properly sized
protectors earth a surge and remain functional. So what is the most
important word in that last sentence?

'Earthing'. From http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm :
> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to
> ground. Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning
> protection device grounds the incoming signal connection
> point of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting
> the threatening surge on a path-of-least resistance
> (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
> Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
> "subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of
> switching circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow
> dissipation of the surge energy.


An effective 'protector' makes a connection to 'protection'.
'Protection' is earth ground. Ineffective protectors forget to mention
that all so essential earthing.

Do you think a silly little box will stop or block what three miles
of sky could not? And yet that is what so many plug-in protectors hope
you believe. Lightning damages if it finds a path to earth through
appliances. Protector was never about stopping or absorbing surge
energy. The box is not protection. The box is only a connection to
protection - earth ground. If profits are so high, then some protector
manufacturers forget to mention earthing.

Those lights report little. For example, if active protector
components (MOVs) inside a plug-in protector are removed (device made
defective), those lights still report a good protector:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Lights only report a type of failure that occurs when protector was
grossly undersized - insufficient to provide effective protection.

Correctly noted is that a protector does nothing for brownouts.
Protectors also remain inert - do nothing - for most every small
transient. Internal appliance protection makes those small transients
irrelevant. Check protector's numerical specifications for the
threshold or let-through voltage. Notice how high voltage must rise
before the protector even sees a surge. Meanwhile, appliances already
have effective internal protection. And if the adjacent protector is
grossly undersized, then that protector can fail while an appliance
protects itself. Those blown lights then promote more sales of an
ineffective product. In reality, the appliance internal protection
protected the appliance.

So that appliance internal protection is not overwhelmed - and by
using protection that costs tens of times less money per protected
appliance - install and properly earth a 'whole house' protector. Now
the protector has that all so critical short earthing connection. Now
the protector is typically sized sufficiently. Now the surge is
earthed long before it gets near to an appliance. Surges must be
earthed before entering the building - 'whole house' - so that
protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed.

'Whole house' is how high reliability facilities have done it for
decades - long before WWII. Effective protector connects a direct
lightning strike a short distance to earth. And yes, that short 'less
than 3 meter' earthing connection is critically important. An even
shorter path to earth means better protection for all household
appliances. One protector for all transistors. A shunt mode
protectors that is effective because it now does what even Ben Franklin
demonstrated in 1752. Did Franklin stop or block lightning? Of course
not. He earthed. He gave to lightning a path that was not
destructive. 'Whole house' protectors do same.

An example of such protection:
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse06.htm

If those lights extinguished, then a protector was grossly undersized
- unacceptable. A protector degrades - must not vaporize - as
demonstrated in charts for the number of surges per current and per
joules. It must earth surges and remain functional. MOV manufacturer
charts defined degradation - not vaporization. Vaporization (as
indicated by an extinguished light) means a protector operated well
beyond what was intended by its MOV component manufacturer. And yet
undersizing - the extinguished light - promotes more sales.
Undersizing actually promotes sales of an ineffective product.

An effective protector earths direct lightning strikes so that the
owner does not even know such surges exist - its that routine.
Earthing is the protection. Therefore, how to identify an ineffective
protector: 1) no dedicated wire for earthing and 2) manufacturer
quietly avoids all discussion about earthing. Effective protectors
earth before surges can enter a building - so that internal appliance
protection is not overwhelmed.
> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to
> ground.


hE. Scrooge (*sling) wrote:
> If they stop working then that means they were working in the place.
>
> The indicator lights are meant to tell if they still work as surge
> protectors after taking a hit. If the light is no longer on then you know
> it's not working as before and you will know it.
>
> Cost of surge protector against cost of thousands of dollars of electronics.
> If they didn't do something to help they wouldn't be on the market, they
> have to do what they advertise. They even advertise on them that they no
> longer work after taking a good hit.
> The only scam round here is you.
>
> E. Scrooge


 
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w_tom
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006
geopelia wrote:
> I don't understand much of that. I just hope the loss of power didn't
> do any harm. Everything is working.
>
> When our shed got struck by lightning, it went down the aerial, charred
> its way along a beam, and came out through the metal band on the water
> barrel.
>
> Since they built the Mormon church, we hope the lightning conductor on
> that will catch any stray bolts.


Lightning rods provide a 'cone of protection' that is typically 60
degrees. Anything outside of that cone is considered unprotected.

If a utility wire is not inside the cone, then household appliances
are directly connected to potential lightning damagem - also outside of
that protection cone. Utility wires are just more ariels that connect
directly into household appliances. If not inside a protection cone,
then you must earth those wires probably with a 'whole house' type
protector.

You know how a lightning rod work? Then you know exactly how a
'whole house' protector works. Either lightning will find earth
ground via that church steeple (or your household electronics) OR you
provide lightning with a shorter path to earth. A path that does not
pass through church steeple or household electronics. A path that does
not even get close to household electronics.

That is protection. Shunting to earth. It's so complex that we teach
lightning rod protection (Ben Franklin and lightning rods) in second
grade science. Neither a lightning rod nor a protector is protection.
Both are only devices to connect lightning to protection. That
protection is earth ground.

Ineffective protectors hope you never learn why earthing was so
important.

Follow that path down ariel, through band in water barrel, etc. It
did not stop there. Lightning forms a complete electrical path from
cloud to earth. Only long after that path is created, does massive
current flow for a very short time. Anything in that path not
sufficiently conductive may be damaged. From that water barrel,
lightning continued elsewhere to ground on a path that was not
destructive. But still, it did not just stop at the water barrel. It
continued somehow to earth. Meanwhile, other paths would have also
continue to earth via that protector - that was so grossly undersized
as to be damaged.

I never expected anyone to understand it the post a first time. It
is chock full of new facts meaning maybe four rereads are necessary.
But up front and what should be apparent in the first read? Where is
the path to earth ground? Effective protectors make a short ('less
than 3 meter) connection to earth. Ineffective protectors hope you
never learn about the most critical component in every protection
system - earthing.

Those lights on those protectors simply report the protector was
grossly undersized and never really were effective. But then where is
the short and dedicated earthing wire? They just sort of forget to
mention earthing.

 
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geopelia
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006

w_tom wrote:
> geopelia wrote:
> > I don't understand much of that. I just hope the loss of power didn't
> > do any harm. Everything is working.
> >
> > When our shed got struck by lightning, it went down the aerial, charred
> > its way along a beam, and came out through the metal band on the water
> > barrel.
> >
> > Since they built the Mormon church, we hope the lightning conductor on
> > that will catch any stray bolts.

>
> Lightning rods provide a 'cone of protection' that is typically 60
> degrees. Anything outside of that cone is considered unprotected.
>
> If a utility wire is not inside the cone, then household appliances
> are directly connected to potential lightning damagem - also outside of
> that protection cone. Utility wires are just more ariels that connect
> directly into household appliances. If not inside a protection cone,
> then you must earth those wires probably with a 'whole house' type
> protector.
>
> You know how a lightning rod work? Then you know exactly how a
> 'whole house' protector works. Either lightning will find earth
> ground via that church steeple (or your household electronics) OR you
> provide lightning with a shorter path to earth. A path that does not
> pass through church steeple or household electronics. A path that does
> not even get close to household electronics.
>
> That is protection. Shunting to earth. It's so complex that we teach
> lightning rod protection (Ben Franklin and lightning rods) in second
> grade science. Neither a lightning rod nor a protector is protection.
> Both are only devices to connect lightning to protection. That
> protection is earth ground.
>
> Ineffective protectors hope you never learn why earthing was so
> important.
>
> Follow that path down ariel, through band in water barrel, etc. It
> did not stop there. Lightning forms a complete electrical path from
> cloud to earth. Only long after that path is created, does massive
> current flow for a very short time. Anything in that path not
> sufficiently conductive may be damaged. From that water barrel,
> lightning continued elsewhere to ground on a path that was not
> destructive. But still, it did not just stop at the water barrel. It
> continued somehow to earth. Meanwhile, other paths would have also
> continue to earth via that protector - that was so grossly undersized
> as to be damaged.
>
> I never expected anyone to understand it the post a first time. It
> is chock full of new facts meaning maybe four rereads are necessary.
> But up front and what should be apparent in the first read? Where is
> the path to earth ground? Effective protectors make a short ('less
> than 3 meter) connection to earth. Ineffective protectors hope you
> never learn about the most critical component in every protection
> system - earthing.
>
> Those lights on those protectors simply report the protector was
> grossly undersized and never really were effective. But then where is
> the short and dedicated earthing wire? They just sort of forget to
> mention earthing.




There is an earthwire that comes out of the house and is fixed on to a
metal post in the ground. It was put in long before we got the
computer, I think it is for the radio or TV.

A Lockwood home is sheathed in aluminium. I wonder if that would stop
lightning.

I've seen lightning hit a Barrage balloon. It looked like that
Zeppelin, flaming bits coming down everywhere. I think it would have
earthed itself down the cable. The crew weren't hurt.
I doubt if anything could stop a strike like that!

Geopelia

 
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Matty F
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-05-2006
geopelia wrote:

> There is an earthwire that comes out of the house and is fixed on to a
> metal post in the ground. It was put in long before we got the
> computer, I think it is for the radio or TV.


All houses should have an earthwire from the meterboard. It's
nothing to do with lightning.

> A Lockwood home is sheathed in aluminium. I wonder if that would stop
> lightning.


It's better than nothing. The conductor from a lightning rod
really needs to be several cm diameter to be of any use, and to
have no sharp bends in it. If I could be bothered, I'd run a big
cable from my TV aerial to a ground post. But there are other
houses around much higher than mine so I'm not worried.
In a thunderstorm I sometimes unplug expensive equipment from the
wall sockets, in case the powerlines in the district are hit by
lightning. The Skytower can be hit dozens of times in a
thunderstorm. It seems to protect the CBD quite well.

 
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geopelia
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2006

Matty F wrote:
> geopelia wrote:
>
> > There is an earthwire that comes out of the house and is fixed on to a
> > metal post in the ground. It was put in long before we got the
> > computer, I think it is for the radio or TV.

>
> All houses should have an earthwire from the meterboard. It's
> nothing to do with lightning.


I expect there is one, Lockwood is a very particular builder. I'll go
and have a look when the rain stops.
>
> > A Lockwood home is sheathed in aluminium. I wonder if that would stop
> > lightning.

>
> It's better than nothing. The conductor from a lightning rod
> really needs to be several cm diameter to be of any use, and to
> have no sharp bends in it. If I could be bothered, I'd run a big
> cable from my TV aerial to a ground post. But there are other
> houses around much higher than mine so I'm not worried.
> In a thunderstorm I sometimes unplug expensive equipment from the
> wall sockets, in case the powerlines in the district are hit by
> lightning. The Skytower can be hit dozens of times in a
> thunderstorm. It seems to protect the CBD quite well.



Both next door buildings are much higher than we are, and there are
some big pine trees across the road.

I unplug the computer in a thunderstorm.

 
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Brendan
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2006
On 5 Jul 2006 19:38:13 -0700, geopelia wrote:

> Both next door buildings are much higher than we are, and there are
> some big pine trees across the road.


Unfortunately that will not do the trick. Because the lightning could hit
power or phone lines elsewhere and go straight to your house.

> I unplug the computer in a thunderstorm.


That will help. Don't forget to unplug the modem from the phone line too.

Anyway, as I said, scrooge knows nothing so please ignore him. It's nice to
see someone else pointing that out for once. Thanks w_tom.

--

.... Brendan

#25464 +(643- [X]

<kow`> "There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand
binary and those who don't."
<SpaceRain> That's only 2 types of people, kow.
<SpaceRain> STUPID


Note: All my comments are copyright 7/07/2006 1:27:22 a.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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E. Scrooge
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-06-2006

"Brendan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 5 Jul 2006 19:38:13 -0700, geopelia wrote:
>
>> Both next door buildings are much higher than we are, and there are
>> some big pine trees across the road.

>
> Unfortunately that will not do the trick. Because the lightning could hit
> power or phone lines elsewhere and go straight to your house.
>
>> I unplug the computer in a thunderstorm.

>
> That will help. Don't forget to unplug the modem from the phone line too.
>
> Anyway, as I said, scrooge knows nothing so please ignore him. It's nice
> to
> see someone else pointing that out for once. Thanks w_tom.
>
> --
>
> ... Brendan


"Anyway, as I said....."

The bullshit tap must be broken as it just keeps on flowing as much as ever.
With any luck lightning will hit you in the arse if can't crawl back under
your rock quick enough.

E. Scrooge


 
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