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The shutdown mystery solved? thanks to all

 
 
shannon
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      07-02-2006
Matty F wrote:
> Geopelia wrote:
>> The mystery shutdown that folks have been helping me with might be
>> solved.
>>
>> This morning there was a loud bang outside, and about half the power
>> went off, a few things in the house worked but most just flickered a
>> bit. I shut everything down and checked all the fuses, then the
>> neighbour came to say their power was off too. Several houses had lost
>> power.
>>
>> The big green box by the power pole had blown something, being Sunday
>> the part they needed to repair it had to be sent for, and the power
>> was off most of the day. The power man was up and down the ladder
>> disconnecting stuff and cutting cables around the box etc. (No, I
>> didn't see any rusty shackles!)
>>
>> So I think something must have been wrong inside the box for a while
>> and caused the mystery shutdown.

>
> It sounds like the 11,000 volt transformer in the green box has blown
> up. It's certainly possible that there has been arcing inside for a few
> days that could mess up your power supply and upset your computer.
> Whenever the power goes off for a while I turn off the power or unplug
> all appliances at the wall and leave a light switched on so I can see
> when it's back up. When the power comes back on there could be a voltage
> spike that could do some damage to appliances. And there was a case when
> they connected the transformer up wrong and delivered 11,000 volts to a
> whole street.
>



Also to be recommended is a plugboard with surge protection, a device
inside (MOV) shorts overvoltage spikes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
They are available at appliance retailers etc.
 
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Geopelia
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006

"shannon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:44a856ca$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Matty F wrote:
>> Geopelia wrote:
>>> The mystery shutdown that folks have been helping me with might be
>>> solved.
>>>
>>> This morning there was a loud bang outside, and about half the power
>>> went off, a few things in the house worked but most just flickered a
>>> bit. I shut everything down and checked all the fuses, then the
>>> neighbour came to say their power was off too. Several houses had lost
>>> power.
>>>
>>> The big green box by the power pole had blown something, being Sunday
>>> the part they needed to repair it had to be sent for, and the power was
>>> off most of the day. The power man was up and down the ladder
>>> disconnecting stuff and cutting cables around the box etc. (No, I didn't
>>> see any rusty shackles!)
>>>
>>> So I think something must have been wrong inside the box for a while and
>>> caused the mystery shutdown.

>>
>> It sounds like the 11,000 volt transformer in the green box has blown up.
>> It's certainly possible that there has been arcing inside for a few days
>> that could mess up your power supply and upset your computer.
>> Whenever the power goes off for a while I turn off the power or unplug
>> all appliances at the wall and leave a light switched on so I can see
>> when it's back up. When the power comes back on there could be a voltage
>> spike that could do some damage to appliances. And there was a case when
>> they connected the transformer up wrong and delivered 11,000 volts to a
>> whole street.
>>

>
>
> Also to be recommended is a plugboard with surge protection, a device
> inside (MOV) shorts overvoltage spikes.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
> They are available at appliance retailers etc.


Yes, I've got one of those. I shut everything off, as I do when there is
lightning about, though the Mormon Church has a lightning conductor.

Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who drove
up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare bin and the
Council's road sign didn't hit that!

Geopelia


 
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E. Scrooge
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006

"Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:e8a28s$ia4$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "shannon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:44a856ca$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Matty F wrote:
>>> Geopelia wrote:
>>>> The mystery shutdown that folks have been helping me with might be
>>>> solved.
>>>>
>>>> This morning there was a loud bang outside, and about half the power
>>>> went off, a few things in the house worked but most just flickered a
>>>> bit. I shut everything down and checked all the fuses, then the
>>>> neighbour came to say their power was off too. Several houses had lost
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> The big green box by the power pole had blown something, being Sunday
>>>> the part they needed to repair it had to be sent for, and the power was
>>>> off most of the day. The power man was up and down the ladder
>>>> disconnecting stuff and cutting cables around the box etc. (No, I
>>>> didn't see any rusty shackles!)
>>>>
>>>> So I think something must have been wrong inside the box for a while
>>>> and caused the mystery shutdown.
>>>
>>> It sounds like the 11,000 volt transformer in the green box has blown
>>> up. It's certainly possible that there has been arcing inside for a few
>>> days that could mess up your power supply and upset your computer.
>>> Whenever the power goes off for a while I turn off the power or unplug
>>> all appliances at the wall and leave a light switched on so I can see
>>> when it's back up. When the power comes back on there could be a voltage
>>> spike that could do some damage to appliances. And there was a case when
>>> they connected the transformer up wrong and delivered 11,000 volts to a
>>> whole street.
>>>

>>
>>
>> Also to be recommended is a plugboard with surge protection, a device
>> inside (MOV) shorts overvoltage spikes.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
>> They are available at appliance retailers etc.

>
> Yes, I've got one of those. I shut everything off, as I do when there is
> lightning about, though the Mormon Church has a lightning conductor.
>
> Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who drove
> up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare bin and
> the Council's road sign didn't hit that!
>
> Geopelia


I'm pretty sure that if the surge guard has taken a big load it will only do
it the once. The light either doesn't come on or stays on to show that the
surge protection is no longer working.
On the real surge boxes.

E. Scrooge


 
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Matty F
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006
E. Scrooge wrote:
> "Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:e8a28s$ia4$(E-Mail Removed)...


>>Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who drove
>>up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare bin and
>>the Council's road sign didn't hit that!


The power poles on most suburban streets have three 11,000 volt
wires on top that supply a number of streets, and under that are
230/440 volt wires that connect direct to houses. Every so often
there is a transformer to convert the 11,000 volts to the lower
voltage.

> I'm pretty sure that if the surge guard has taken a big load it will only do
> it the once. The light either doesn't come on or stays on to show that the
> surge protection is no longer working.
> On the real surge boxes.


It can't do any harm to use a surge box all the time. But when
the power is switched on after a power cut, the voltage may vary
for a bit, or even go off again. So I like to isolate all
appliances, computer etc from that.

 
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Geopelia
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006

"E. Scrooge" <scrooge@*shot.co.nz (*sling)> wrote in message
news:1151902654.858554@ftpsrv1...
>
> "Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:e8a28s$ia4$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> "shannon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:44a856ca$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Matty F wrote:
>>>> Geopelia wrote:
>>>>> The mystery shutdown that folks have been helping me with might be
>>>>> solved.
>>>>>
>>>>> This morning there was a loud bang outside, and about half the power
>>>>> went off, a few things in the house worked but most just flickered a
>>>>> bit. I shut everything down and checked all the fuses, then the
>>>>> neighbour came to say their power was off too. Several houses had lost
>>>>> power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big green box by the power pole had blown something, being Sunday
>>>>> the part they needed to repair it had to be sent for, and the power
>>>>> was off most of the day. The power man was up and down the ladder
>>>>> disconnecting stuff and cutting cables around the box etc. (No, I
>>>>> didn't see any rusty shackles!)
>>>>>
>>>>> So I think something must have been wrong inside the box for a while
>>>>> and caused the mystery shutdown.
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like the 11,000 volt transformer in the green box has blown
>>>> up. It's certainly possible that there has been arcing inside for a few
>>>> days that could mess up your power supply and upset your computer.
>>>> Whenever the power goes off for a while I turn off the power or unplug
>>>> all appliances at the wall and leave a light switched on so I can see
>>>> when it's back up. When the power comes back on there could be a
>>>> voltage spike that could do some damage to appliances. And there was a
>>>> case when they connected the transformer up wrong and delivered 11,000
>>>> volts to a whole street.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also to be recommended is a plugboard with surge protection, a device
>>> inside (MOV) shorts overvoltage spikes.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
>>> They are available at appliance retailers etc.

>>
>> Yes, I've got one of those. I shut everything off, as I do when there is
>> lightning about, though the Mormon Church has a lightning conductor.
>>
>> Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who
>> drove up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare bin
>> and the Council's road sign didn't hit that!
>>
>> Geopelia

>
> I'm pretty sure that if the surge guard has taken a big load it will only
> do it the once. The light either doesn't come on or stays on to show that
> the surge protection is no longer working.
> On the real surge boxes.
>
> E. Scrooge

The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an orange).
It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
think that is the same kind.

Geopelia


 
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Geopelia
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006

"Matty F" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:e8ag5a$j54$(E-Mail Removed)...
> E. Scrooge wrote:
>> "Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:e8a28s$ia4$(E-Mail Removed)...

>
>>>Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who
>>>drove up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare bin
>>>and the Council's road sign didn't hit that!

>
> The power poles on most suburban streets have three 11,000 volt wires on
> top that supply a number of streets, and under that are 230/440 volt wires
> that connect direct to houses. Every so often there is a transformer to
> convert the 11,000 volts to the lower voltage.
>
>> I'm pretty sure that if the surge guard has taken a big load it will only
>> do it the once. The light either doesn't come on or stays on to show
>> that the surge protection is no longer working.
>> On the real surge boxes.

>
> It can't do any harm to use a surge box all the time. But when the power
> is switched on after a power cut, the voltage may vary for a bit, or even
> go off again. So I like to isolate all appliances, computer etc from that.
>


I allow quite a while before switching anything on after a power cut.



 
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E. Scrooge
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006

"Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:e8aveb$8i1$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "E. Scrooge" <scrooge@*shot.co.nz (*sling)> wrote in message
> news:1151902654.858554@ftpsrv1...
>>
>> "Geopelia" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:e8a28s$ia4$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>
>>> "shannon" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:44a856ca$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> Matty F wrote:
>>>>> Geopelia wrote:
>>>>>> The mystery shutdown that folks have been helping me with might be
>>>>>> solved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This morning there was a loud bang outside, and about half the power
>>>>>> went off, a few things in the house worked but most just flickered a
>>>>>> bit. I shut everything down and checked all the fuses, then the
>>>>>> neighbour came to say their power was off too. Several houses had
>>>>>> lost power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The big green box by the power pole had blown something, being Sunday
>>>>>> the part they needed to repair it had to be sent for, and the power
>>>>>> was off most of the day. The power man was up and down the ladder
>>>>>> disconnecting stuff and cutting cables around the box etc. (No, I
>>>>>> didn't see any rusty shackles!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I think something must have been wrong inside the box for a while
>>>>>> and caused the mystery shutdown.
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds like the 11,000 volt transformer in the green box has blown
>>>>> up. It's certainly possible that there has been arcing inside for a
>>>>> few days that could mess up your power supply and upset your computer.
>>>>> Whenever the power goes off for a while I turn off the power or unplug
>>>>> all appliances at the wall and leave a light switched on so I can see
>>>>> when it's back up. When the power comes back on there could be a
>>>>> voltage spike that could do some damage to appliances. And there was a
>>>>> case when they connected the transformer up wrong and delivered 11,000
>>>>> volts to a whole street.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also to be recommended is a plugboard with surge protection, a device
>>>> inside (MOV) shorts overvoltage spikes.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
>>>> They are available at appliance retailers etc.
>>>
>>> Yes, I've got one of those. I shut everything off, as I do when there is
>>> lightning about, though the Mormon Church has a lightning conductor.
>>>
>>> Is there really 11,000 volts in that box? Just as well the clown who
>>> drove up the kerb ( on a straight road!) and demolished our Wastecare
>>> bin and the Council's road sign didn't hit that!
>>>
>>> Geopelia

>>
>> I'm pretty sure that if the surge guard has taken a big load it will only
>> do it the once. The light either doesn't come on or stays on to show
>> that the surge protection is no longer working.
>> On the real surge boxes.
>>
>> E. Scrooge

> The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an
> orange).
> It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
> Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
> think that is the same kind.
>
> Geopelia


That's good, sounds like it's still in good condition then.

E. Scrooge


 
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w_tom
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-03-2006
Geopelia wrote:
> The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an orange).
> It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
> Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
> think that is the same kind.


Those lights only indicate failure when the failure is a type that
must never happen. Meanwhile, other failure modes remain unreported.

A protector must earth direct transients and remain effective.
However, to sell protectors on myths, then many are intentionally
undersized so that a homeowner will assume, "The protector sacrificed
itself to save my computer". Such protectors failed prematurely AND
left protection inside the appliance to protect electronics. Some
surges too small to harm a computer will still destroy an undersized
plug-in protector. It promotes more sales.

Protectors are essentially a maybe $3 power strip with some $0.10
parts inside. Active component is called an MOV. MOVs must never fail
by vaporizing or shorting. An MOV manufacturer demonstrates how MOVs
work:
> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse ...
> is applies 10,000 times continuously with the interval of
> tens seconds at room temperature.


Does this sound like a device intended to fail on the first surge?
Does this sound like a device intended to absorb the entire energy of a
surge? Of course not. That is not what shunt mode protectors do. As
Vb changes, then the MOV degrades. It must not vaporize as so often
happens to promote grossly undersized plug-in protectors. It must
degrade.

Effective shunt mode protectors do same a Ben Franklin demonstrated
in 1752. Lightning will seek earth ground destructively via a church
steeple. Franklin simply gave lightning a non-destructive path to
earth. We don't stop or absorb surges. We shunt them to earth on
paths that are not destrutive. No shunt to earth and typically
destructive surges will find earth ground via household appliances.
Shunt mode protectors are effective with a less than 3 meter connection
to earth.

Down at the telephone Central Office is how effective protection
works - as was standard even long before WWII. Every incoming wire on
every cable connects to earth ground. A connection made by hard wire
or made via a 'whole house' type protector. Shunt mode protectors
earth. A shunt mode protector without earthing is not effective.

So instead we take that $3 power strip, add some $0.10 components,
and hype it as a miracle solution to the naive. Review for yourself.
Where in its numerical specs does that plug-in protector even claim
protection from each type of transient? It does not. Why do its own
specs forget to claim protection from the typically destructive
transient?

Two important numbers are joules and let-through voltage. Joules
defines a protector's life expectancy. A number used in charts to
determine number of transients and size of those transients before a
protector degrades. Not fail. Properly sized protectors always remain
functional and only degrade. A grossly undersized protector (too few
joules) is destroyed by only one surge - ineffective.

Look for the let-through or threshold voltage on that protector. For
240 VAC, thern may be maybe 500+ volts. Any 'noise' created by
household appliances (refrigerator, vacumm cleaner, etc) is completely
ignored by a protector. Protection inside all appliances makes that
'noise' irrelevant. The protector is for a transient that might
otherwise overwhelm internal appliance protection. Therefore every
incoming utility wire (cable TV, telephone, AC electric) must be
earthed, less than 3 meters, to a common earth ground. Telephone and
AC electric require protectors to make that earthing connection. Cable
TV makes that earthing connection using ground block and hardwire. If
all incoming utilities are properly earthed, then a transient that may
overwhelm internal appliance protection is made irrelevant.

This applies to all incoming utilities - overhead or underground.
What makes a shunt mode protector effective is earthing. No earth
ground means no effective protection. So plug-in protector don't even
discuss earthing - a hope you don't learn about the most critical
component in a protection system: single point earth ground.

Meanwhile look what happens to those lights on a protector where all
MOVs are removed. The lights remain on because those lights actually
do not report a protector as effective. Those lights will only report
one type of failure. If that one type failure occurs, then the
protector was grossly undersized - just another reason why the plug-in
protector was ineffective:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Protector was completely destroyed - "All 6 MOVs removed" - and still
those lights say protector is OK. Effective protectors, instead, earth
transients so that protection inside an appliance is not overwhelmed.

 
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Brendan
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-04-2006
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:09 +1200, Geopelia wrote:

> The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an orange).
> It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
> Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
> think that is the same kind.


Those surge protectors are of limited use. Some people even call them
scams.

If they take a big enough hit, or enough smaller hits, they will stop
working and you will not know it. You'll be unprotected.

They also do nothing for brown-outs.

--

.... Brendan

So I was getting into my car, and this bloke says to me "Can you
give me a lift?" I said "Sure, you look great, the world's your
oyster, go for it.'


Note: All my comments are copyright 4/07/2006 1:33:47 a.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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E. Scrooge
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-04-2006

"Brendan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bj8dsvm8cn95$(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:09 +1200, Geopelia wrote:
>
>> The two lights that are always on are still there. (A yellow and an
>> orange).
>> It was a very expensive surge box, as recommended by the computer shop.
>> Hubby says he could have got one a lot cheaper from Bunnings, but I don't
>> think that is the same kind.

>
> Those surge protectors are of limited use. Some people even call them
> scams.
>
> If they take a big enough hit, or enough smaller hits, they will stop
> working and you will not know it. You'll be unprotected.
>
> They also do nothing for brown-outs.
>
> --
>
> ... Brendan


If they stop working then that means they were working in the place.

The indicator lights are meant to tell if they still work as surge
protectors after taking a hit. If the light is no longer on then you know
it's not working as before and you will know it.

Cost of surge protector against cost of thousands of dollars of electronics.
If they didn't do something to help they wouldn't be on the market, they
have to do what they advertise. They even advertise on them that they no
longer work after taking a good hit.
The only scam round here is you.

E. Scrooge




 
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