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Am I just being over sensitive?

 
 
Shane
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
But...
What do you think?
__Start__

Hi Shane. *Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?

The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work. *Initially I just want
some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
you (9-11?) *If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
pretty flexible accommodating that.

Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.

Regards, New Employer
Shane wrote:
> Hi New Employer,
>
> Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

hours.
> The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

isn't
> during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
> And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

I
> return an edited copy via email?
>
>
> Thanks
> Shane


__EOF__

Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
there or not
The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?

 
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Steve
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:19:36 +1200, Shane wrote:

> Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
> I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
> sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
> considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
> But...
> What do you think?
> __Start__
>
> Hi Shane. *Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
>
> The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work. *Initially I just want
> some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
> you (9-11?) *If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
> pretty flexible accommodating that.
>
> Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.
>
> Regards, New Employer
> Shane wrote:
>> Hi New Employer,
>>
>> Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

> hours.
>> The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

> isn't
>> during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
>> And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

> I
>> return an edited copy via email?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>> Shane

>
> __EOF__
>
> Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
> there or not
> The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
> I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
> with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
> harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
> hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
> intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?


Do you *really* want the job? If not, then refuse to sign without the
removal of the offending bits - be willing to haggle on the length of the
ban. It's unlikely that you'll meet many between 7 and 11 on Monday
mornings, though so the point's a bit moot. ( Set up your own company, and
work through that. Then you'll not need to work for any of them - much
better solution ).

Will you be either working for or delivering product to their clients? It
sort of changes the picture a bit.

Also, is English the PE's first language?

 
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Shane
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Steve wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:19:36 +1200, Shane wrote:
>
>> Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
>> I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
>> sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
>> considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
>> But...
>> What do you think?
>> __Start__
>>
>> Hi Shane. *Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
>>
>> The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work. *Initially I just want
>> some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
>> you (9-11?) *If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that
>> we're pretty flexible accommodating that.
>>
>> Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you
>> started.
>>
>> Regards, New Employer
>> Shane wrote:
>>> Hi New Employer,
>>>
>>> Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

>> hours.
>>> The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

>> isn't
>>> during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
>>> And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or
>>> do

>> I
>>> return an edited copy via email?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Shane

>>
>> __EOF__
>>
>> Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
>> there or not
>> The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his
>> clients I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after
>> finishing with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told,
>> so it seems harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for
>> work (the hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit
>> study and
>> intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?

>
> Do you *really* want the job? If not, then refuse to sign without the
> removal of the offending bits - be willing to haggle on the length of the
> ban. It's unlikely that you'll meet many between 7 and 11 on Monday
> mornings, though so the point's a bit moot. ( Set up your own company, and
> work through that. Then you'll not need to work for any of them - much
> better solution ).
>
> Will you be either working for or delivering product to their clients? It
> sort of changes the picture a bit.
>
> Also, is English the PE's first language?


Heh thanks,
I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of paper
saying Im not as bad as I smell/look
The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
student couldnt)
I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is *another*
plus
Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
(well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details
The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
(Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially.. but
not professionally
Hmm
 
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Mercury
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
> Heh thanks,
> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of paper
> saying Im not as bad as I smell/look


Can't smell anything here. Oh and **** your gorgious.

> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
> student couldnt)
> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
> *another*
> plus
> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details
> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially.. but
> not professionally
> Hmm


Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA / part
time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then they have
an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale. 2 weeks per
month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a lot IMHO unless
they are specific about the technology / proprietary nature EG they are
working on a something to be patented, then it would be reasonable for a
long period.



 
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Shane
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Mercury wrote:

>> Heh thanks,
>> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
>> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look

>
> Can't smell anything here. Oh and **** your gorgious.
>


With talk like that, you could buy me beer

>> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
>> student couldnt)
>> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
>> *another*
>> plus
>> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
>> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
>> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details
>> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
>> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
>> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
>> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
>> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
>> but not professionally
>> Hmm

>
> Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
> part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
> they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale.
> 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
> lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
> nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it would be
> reasonable for a long period.


This is good advice
Thanks
Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
for him
Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB course
up the duff....


 
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Waylon Kenning
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 18:59:10 +1200, Shane wrote:

> Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
> seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
> for him


I work part time. Basically I'm restricted from trading against my
employer for a period of one month, which happens to be how much notice I
have to give.

--
Regards,

Waylon Kenning.
 
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EMB
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Shane wrote:

> The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
> I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
> with him,


ROTFLMAO. I had a former employer try and hit me with a 6 month clause
like that - as soon as I objected he dropped to 3 months without a
whimper and admitted he was just trying to see what he could get away
with. I'm currently working with a handshake agreement not to poach
clients - perfectly acceptable to all parties concerned. I'd suggest
that you tell him to delete the clause in it's entirety given how
relatively low-end the job you will be doing is.



--
EMB
 
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Philip
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Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Shane wrote:
> Mercury wrote:
>
>>> Heh thanks,
>>> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
>>> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look

>> Can't smell anything here. Oh and **** your gorgious.
>>

>
> With talk like that, you could buy me beer
>
>>> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what struggling
>>> student couldnt)
>>> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
>>> *another*
>>> plus
>>> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day basis
>>> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
>>> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details
>>> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
>>> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
>>> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
>>> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
>>> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
>>> but not professionally
>>> Hmm

>> Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
>> part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
>> they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding scale.
>> 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
>> lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
>> nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it would be
>> reasonable for a long period.

>
> This is good advice
> Thanks
> Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other contracts Ive
> seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
> for him
> Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
> their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
> never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB course
> up the duff....
>
>

You do it on company time, it belongs to the company & you can't take it
with you when you leave (without their say so)

You do it on private time in a different field, it's yours.

You do it on private time using company IP, specialist knowledge or just
in the same field as the company, you have a debate that you might not
win. But if you improve the company's product on your own time I'd
reckon you are entitled to reward.

Philip

(
 
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thingy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Shane wrote:
> Given that everyone here *knows* Im a all round nice guy <G>
> I exchange some emails with a prospective employer (P/T) and Im detecting
> sarcasm, in conjunction with two or three other *little* things Im
> considering telling the guy thanks but no thanks
> But...
> What do you think?
> __Start__
>
> Hi Shane. Would you email me a paper copy of the signed forms?
>
> The Monday hours are when I'd like you to work. Initially I just want
> some face time for an hour or two so we can work in with when would suit
> you (9-11?) If you need some time during the 7-11 to you'll find that we're
> pretty flexible accommodating that.
>
> Once I get those forms back we can talk about when best to get you started.
>
> Regards, New Employer
> Shane wrote:
>
>>Hi New Employer,
>>
>>Thanks everything looks straight forward, I just have a query on the

>
> hours.
>
>>The pdf mentions Monday mornings at 7am to 11am, but I'm assuming this

>
> isn't
>
>>during the time I will be travelling to new workplace?
>>And do you want a dead tree version of the contract returned to you, or do

>
> I
>
>>return an edited copy via email?
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>Shane

>
>
> __EOF__
>
> Hmm even after I write it up for posting I cant decide if theres an issue
> there or not
> The other point is, The contract forbids me to work *for* any of his clients
> I meet during the course of my employment, for 12 months after finishing
> with him, I.T. employment is all about networking, so I'm told, so it seems
> harsh, not that Im looking to overtly solicit his clients for work (the
> hours we have agreed on are plenty considering I have to fit study and
> intarweb arguing in as well). Any thoughts?
>


email you a paper copy of the forms?

heh....

Any of his clients sounds reasonable, 12 months sounds OK ish. When
contracting most agencies do this, some even as long as 2 years....which
is silly.

regards

Thing

 
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thingy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      03-29-2006
Philip wrote:
> Shane wrote:
>
>> Mercury wrote:
>>
>>>> Heh thanks,
>>>> I could do with the job, its SA and I wouldnt mind a little piece of
>>>> paper saying Im not as bad as I smell/look
>>>
>>> Can't smell anything here. Oh and **** your gorgious.
>>>

>>
>> With talk like that, you could buy me beer
>>
>>>> The hours are *perfect* for me, I could do with the dosh (what
>>>> struggling
>>>> student couldnt)
>>>> I'll be sitting on my duff working remotely for the job, which is
>>>> *another*
>>>> plus
>>>> Its servicing clients so I will be dealing with them on a day 2 day
>>>> basis
>>>> (well as day 2 day as a p/t job can be)
>>>> Im now beginning to think Im just moaning over details
>>>> The PEs first lang is english, but hes also fluent in comp.lang.java
>>>> Which means he *should* be used to dealing with IT staff
>>>> (Is it IT, ICT, or ISS staff now???)
>>>> Maybe hes being flippant because it was fairly obvious (to him) how he
>>>> wanted it, and thats precisely the type of answer Id give.. socially..
>>>> but not professionally
>>>> Hmm
>>>
>>> Negotiate on the points that stick - 12 months is a bit much for a SA /
>>> part time position (if their grasp on their clients is so feeble, then
>>> they have an issue and need to sort it) - perhaps suggest a sliding
>>> scale.
>>> 2 weeks per month employed limited to six months. Six months is still a
>>> lot IMHO unless they are specific about the technology / proprietary
>>> nature EG they are working on a something to be patented, then it
>>> would be
>>> reasonable for a long period.

>>
>>
>> This is good advice
>> Thanks
>> Although the IP details are very reasonable compared to other
>> contracts Ive
>> seen (Basically all hes interested in is the copyright of things produced
>> for him


OK, but what about if you base some of the work on stuff you previously
did? say use a piece of neat java code you have developed over the last
year? You would not want to lose the right to continue using it would
you? I'd discuss this point.

>> Damn I *hate* contracts, I can see the point when employers have to cover
>> their ass, and it covers employees asses as well... sometimes... but I'll
>> never like them... least not till I get the nice brunette in the LLB
>> course
>> up the duff....
>>
>>

> You do it on company time, it belongs to the company & you can't take it
> with you when you leave (without their say so)
>
> You do it on private time in a different field, it's yours.


Depends on the contract, some say all IP. So if you are a techy in IT
and say develope a world beating combusion engine in your own time, you
might find them coming after you as its worth their while.

In 2000 I went to work for a hospital on a contract, they tried this
one, I crossed those out in front of HR. This was for 2 reasons, it
covered all IP, even in un-related work, plus the output I was giving
them was based on taking thier raw data putting into my "middle work"
with the output going to them....they wanted all IP to be handed over to
them and specifically not re-used incl the middle process. We
negoitiated a new contract on more reasonable terms and off we went.

This happened again with a big American Company, they wanted all IP, but
this time it was wrapped up in an "ethics" clause that they expected us
to sign about 2 years after I started and every year afterwards, I
refused. We had an argument, they claimed that what I was doing was
signing to say I had read it and not that I agreed with it, but that was
not what it said from what I read. This was an ongoing drama til I left....

So you do need to be careful.

> You do it on private time using company IP, specialist knowledge or just
> in the same field as the company, you have a debate that you might not
> win. But if you improve the company's product on your own time I'd
> reckon you are entitled to reward.
>
> Philip
>
> (


regards

Thing
 
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