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Webcam for Linux

 
 
shannon
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      01-30-2006
Peter wrote:
> Fred Dagg wrote:
>> Fact is, people prefer Windows.

>
> Fact is, people don't get a choice.
> At present, I'm looking to buy a new computer, so am shopping around for
> hardware without Windos.
> At Harvey Norman, the computer salesperson said that PCs don't come without
> MS Windows. I asked if they knew of anywhere that I could buy a computer
> without Windows, and they said there isn't anywhere, you can't buy a
> computer without Windows installed.
> At a local computer store, the owner told me that under their supply
> contracts, they aren't allowed to sell computers without Windows installed.
> However, if I don't tell anyone, he could wipe XP off the hard drive, but
> I'd still have to pay for it.
>
> Fact is, for almost all customers, there is no choice. Customers who want
> to buy a PC, don't get any option but to buy Windows. It is called a
> monopoly.
>
> I know that if you search enough and have above average understanding of
> PCs, you can find a vendor to sell you something without Windows, but this
> is not an option for most ordinary customers.
>
>
> Peter
>
>


So why did you ask at Harvey Normans if you knew that ?
The fact is that the manufacturers include Windows like they include a
cpu or DVD writer, its a component of the ready to go box that they
offer, just like the operating system on your cellphone or pda, just
like you get an Apple operating system when you buy a Macintosh.
From the point of view of the manufacturer, they are selling a system
which has a commitment of support from each vendor of each component
that they include.
The price of a bundled sytem from a major manufacturer with Windows on
will often be cheaper than a custom computer constructed to the same
spec without an operating system.
This is because there are no options on the assembly line, an HD goes in
with Windows already installed in OEM mode.
Adding a line to the inventory without an OS has to have a commercial
justification. It doesn't, its a pain in the arse at every point, there
is no payoff.
So you get to buy a PC that has a temporary OS on ready to download and
install Linux.
If you commit to buying enough PCs from a manufacturer you would be able
to get them to bolt in a Linspire loaded drive just like Walmart does.
When Harvey Normans can buy and sell Linspire PCs at the same rate as a
Windows model, then they will do it.




 
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Running with scissors
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      01-31-2006
On , , Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:06:27 +1300, Re: Webcam for Linux,
Fred Dagg <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:03:00 +1300, steve
><(E-Mail Removed)> exclaimed:
>
>>Fred Dagg wrote:
>>
>>> (although the link above effectively destroys the conspiracy theory,
>>> anyway...)

>>
>>It does not.

>
>Yes it does.
>
>>Because one vendor installs Linux does not in any way prove that other
>>vendors of other products and PCs do not support Linux because Microsoft
>>requires them not to.

>
>Riiiight.... So these nameless OEMs are forced by Microsoft to not
>provide Linux versions. But this excludes the largest in the world,
>Dell, of course. Oh, and IBM. And HP. And Acer. And pretty much any
>other manufacturer.
>
>Hmm, anyone notice a pattern emerging? Could it be that many DO
>provide a Linux option? Surely not?!? Could it be that THERE IS SIMPLY
>NOT DEMAND FOR LINUX PREINSTALLED MACHINES, and this is why there are
>only a few options, usually hidden away in the 'Linux' section of
>their websites so that Linux geeks can go and strum over it?
>
>Fact is, people prefer Windows. I don't see what's so hard to
>understand about that. Linux is great for some people as a toy desktop
>(and boy do they like to tell others about their toy!), but really, it
>is NOT a mainstream desktop OS for the masses. Period.
>
>>While normally secret, there have been several instances of such contracts
>>being leaked.

>
>Rubbish. You are talking about contracts from many years ago, from
>before the Antitrust cases. Bad MS. These days such contracts are
>definitively illegal, and I'd be very surprised if they bothered. They
>simply don't exist.
>
>>If a device manufacturer wants a good, co-operative relationship with
>>Microsoft for Windows internals info that allows them to develop new
>>products, they must not support Linux....or they will find they no longer
>>have access to the same information their competitors have.
>>

>Of course Microsoft are going to look after companies that look after
>them, same as any other business (or individual) in any industry
>whatsoever. This does not mean that their clients can't fire out a
>token Linux system or two to keep the geeks (that are never going to
>buy them anyway) happy.


How many of the linuoids here would buy a system with linux
preinstalled or a bare system if they were available?
I would be willing to guarantee that the number would be
infinitesimable, it wouldn't worth any manufacturer going to the
trouble.
Most of you have probably built your own systems anyway, that
puts the number of you at the same that would want to buy a bare
bones sytem or pre installed linux.
Around about 98% of the computer using and owning fraternity.
The vast and overwhelming majority just want to turn the computer
on and use it. And be able to use other computers with the
certainty that they would be running recognisable operating
systems and software.

 
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Running with scissors
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      01-31-2006
On , , Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:14:54 +1300, Re: Webcam for Linux,
Fred Dagg <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Actually, it doesn't at all. Basically any OEM can apply to MS (or
>Intel) for a contribution toward their advertising costs. They only
>have to add a bit to their adverts, and meet certain criteria (none of
>which says they can't sell other OSs).
>
>Fact is, this is perfectly legitimate, and prevalent in almost every
>industry (noticed how many dairies have "coca cola" splattered on
>their signs?)


I can't ever remember seeing a dairy that sells pepsi as well as
coke. There are agreements that the shop owner will not put any
other manufacturers products in the coke fridge which doesn't
belong to the shopkeeper anyway, they are only ever loaned and
never sold to the shop keeper.

 
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Running with scissors
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      01-31-2006
On , , Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:17:41 +1300, Re: Webcam for Linux,
Peter <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Fred Dagg wrote:
>
>> Actually, it doesn't at all. Basically any OEM can apply to MS (or
>> Intel) for a contribution toward their advertising costs. They only
>> have to add a bit to their adverts, and meet certain criteria (none of
>> which says they can't sell other OSs).

>
>I understand from other threads elsewhere that Microsoft is quite prepared
>to halt such payments to OEM's etc who dare to sell machines loaded with
>other OS'es and hardware items labelled as being suitable for Linux.
>
>If Microsoft chooses to withhold these payments at its whims, it is almost
>impossible for the other party to force Microsoft to pay up by legal or
>other means.


Because they have broken the agreement with MicroSoft. Duh...

 
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Peter
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      01-31-2006
shannon wrote:
> So why did you ask at Harvey Normans if you knew that ?


Because 3 years ago I did buy a computer from HN - without paying for any MS
Windows on it. Seems the Microsoft monopoly has extended and got that bit
more oppressive in the meantime.

And I don't buy the argument about it being uneconomic to offer the customer
choice. This doesn't apply with other goods - us consumers get a choice of
make and model on most other things (cars, TV, stereo, vacuum cleaner,
etc).


Peter


 
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Peter
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      01-31-2006
Running with scissors wrote:


> How many of the linuoids here would buy a system with linux
> preinstalled or a bare system if they were available?
> I would be willing to guarantee that the number would be
> infinitesimable, it wouldn't worth any manufacturer going to the
> trouble.


But the point is you cannot buy either - it has to come with Windows or
Steve Ballmer may start throwing chairs at the supplier.

A Linux person is not going to care if distribution 'A' Linux is loaded if
(s)he intends using distribution 'B'. The buyer knows (s)he is not paying
anything for the OS. If the buyer wants to see it running Linux in the
shop, (s)he will not mind what distribution it is running, because if all
the hardware works with 'A', it will work with 'B' unless there are
exceptional circumstances.

> Most of you have probably built your own systems anyway, that
> puts the number of you at the same that would want to buy a bare
> bones sytem or pre installed linux.
> Around about 98% of the computer using and owning fraternity.
> The vast and overwhelming majority just want to turn the computer
> on and use it.

A computer loaded with Linux and Open Office does just that. The only thing
is Bill and Steve will sanction vendors selling such computers - that is
the main reason they are not around.

> And be able to use other computers with the
> certainty that they would be running recognisable operating
> systems and software.


???????? Open Office is fast becoming recognisable software, and it works
on Windows and on UNIX systems (including Linux).

 
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