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Cable vs Phone Line High Speed Internet

 
 
Nigel Roberts
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Nigel Roberts <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is sick or
>>>>dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru 6889. The third
>>>>is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>
>>> I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've seen
>>> documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how? Either
>>> BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.

>>
>>The thing is that if a person has part of a file that you want, and you
>>are both behind firewalls with out pin holes, you will never be able to
>>connect to them to get the bits you want and they can never connect to you
>>either.

>
> Actually, you can by doing hole punching. BitTorrent must be able to
> manage this, because it doesn't say that, if you don't open the
> pinholes, you won't be/may not be able to transfer at all.


TCP hole punching is not well supported by some NAT gateways, and I'm not
sure that bittorrent even implements it. By being behind a non-pinholed
firewall, you are not completely shutting your self off, you are only
limiting yourself to peers that are not behind a pinholed firewall.
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed)-a-geek.net>,
Shane <(E-Mail Removed)-a-geek.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:45:14 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Nigel Roberts <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is sick or
>>>>>dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru 6889. The third
>>>>>is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>>
>>>> I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've seen
>>>> documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how? Either
>>>> BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.
>>>
>>>The thing is that if a person has part of a file that you want, and you
>>>are both behind firewalls with out pin holes, you will never be able to
>>>connect to them to get the bits you want and they can never connect to
>>>you either.

>>
>> Actually, you can by doing hole punching. BitTorrent must be able to
>> manage this, because it doesn't say that, if you don't open the pinholes,
>> you won't be/may not be able to transfer at all.

>
>Stateful connection rules would apply
>ie. if your client initiated the upload, or download, then your firewall
>requires no pinholes
>if an outside client, or tracker, attempts to initiate an upload from your
>machine then pinholes would be required


Maybe you need to read something about hole punching
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAT_traversal>,
<http://gnunet.org/papers/nat.pdf>.
 
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David
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Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <4337c915$0$31716$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>
>>
>>>In article <4337bad5$0$6279$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>>> Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is
>>>>>>sick or dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru
>>>>>>6889. The third is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>>>
>>>>>I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've
>>>>>seen documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how?
>>>>>Either BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.
>>>>
>>>>The theory is that either your ISP or the other peer's ISP may
>>>>throttle based on the well-known port number.
>>>>Better to choose a random port to avoid that happening.
>>>
>>>In that case, wouldn't it be better *not* to use well-known ports
>>>6881-thru-whatever?

>>
>>Yes ... and ...
>>
>>D'oh! Re-reading Gordon's post, he is (also) saying that the ports
>>chosen must be open, or pinholed/forwarded through so that other
>>peers can connect to your PC and share. If you can't accept incoming
>>connections (due to firewall/NAT etc) then your download speed may
>>suffer.

>
>
> Either you can connect or you can't. If you can connect, what difference
> does the port number make to your download speed?


because you will only be able to connect to some peers (connectable
ones). Being connectable allows you connect to all of them, hence giving
greater speeds. Also the port number is important because some ISPs
throttle common P2P ports. Even if yours doesnt, it can still affect
your speeds as the ISPs of other peers may be throttling the port you
are using.
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
In article <zV5%e.15254$(E-Mail Removed)>,
David <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> In article <4337c915$0$31716$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <4337bad5$0$6279$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>>>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>>>> Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is
>>>>>>>sick or dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru
>>>>>>>6889. The third is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've
>>>>>>seen documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how?
>>>>>>Either BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.
>>>>>
>>>>>The theory is that either your ISP or the other peer's ISP may
>>>>>throttle based on the well-known port number.
>>>>>Better to choose a random port to avoid that happening.
>>>>
>>>>In that case, wouldn't it be better *not* to use well-known ports
>>>>6881-thru-whatever?
>>>
>>>Yes ... and ...
>>>
>>>D'oh! Re-reading Gordon's post, he is (also) saying that the ports
>>>chosen must be open, or pinholed/forwarded through so that other
>>>peers can connect to your PC and share. If you can't accept incoming
>>>connections (due to firewall/NAT etc) then your download speed may
>>>suffer.

>>
>>
>> Either you can connect or you can't. If you can connect, what difference
>> does the port number make to your download speed?

>
>because you will only be able to connect to some peers (connectable
>ones). Being connectable allows you connect to all of them, hence giving
>greater speeds. Also the port number is important because some ISPs
>throttle common P2P ports. Even if yours doesnt, it can still affect
>your speeds as the ISPs of other peers may be throttling the port you
>are using.


It seems to me those two points are contradictory. Pinholing well-known
ports makes you "connectable", but those well-known ports are also the
most likely ones to be throttled by the ISPs. The only way to avoid this
throttling is not to use the well-known ports.
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Nigel Roberts <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Nigel Roberts <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is sick or
>>>>>dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru 6889. The third
>>>>>is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>>
>>>> I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've seen
>>>> documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how? Either
>>>> BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.
>>>
>>>The thing is that if a person has part of a file that you want, and you
>>>are both behind firewalls with out pin holes, you will never be able to
>>>connect to them to get the bits you want and they can never connect to you
>>>either.

>>
>> Actually, you can by doing hole punching. BitTorrent must be able to
>> manage this, because it doesn't say that, if you don't open the
>> pinholes, you won't be/may not be able to transfer at all.

>
>TCP hole punching is not well supported by some NAT gateways, and I'm not
>sure that bittorrent even implements it.


I suspecct that it does, though I've only just started wading through
the (poorly-commented) source. There's some mention of "NAT checking" in
track.py, which I think has to do with hole punching.
 
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David
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <zV5%e.15254$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> David <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4337c915$0$31716$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <4337bad5$0$6279$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>>>Mark C <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <(E-Mail Removed)_zealand> wrote in
>>>>>>news:(E-Mail Removed):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>>>>>Gordon <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Two things which slow [BitTorrent] down. 1) a tracker which is
>>>>>>>>sick or dies and 2) not having the correct ports open 6881 thru
>>>>>>>>6889. The third is lack of seeds and/or peers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I never understood the ports 6881-thru-whatever business. I've
>>>>>>>seen documentation claiming it can make things faster, but how?
>>>>>>>Either BitTorrent can make the connections or it can't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The theory is that either your ISP or the other peer's ISP may
>>>>>>throttle based on the well-known port number.
>>>>>>Better to choose a random port to avoid that happening.
>>>>>
>>>>>In that case, wouldn't it be better *not* to use well-known ports
>>>>>6881-thru-whatever?
>>>>
>>>>Yes ... and ...
>>>>
>>>>D'oh! Re-reading Gordon's post, he is (also) saying that the ports
>>>>chosen must be open, or pinholed/forwarded through so that other
>>>>peers can connect to your PC and share. If you can't accept incoming
>>>>connections (due to firewall/NAT etc) then your download speed may
>>>>suffer.
>>>
>>>
>>>Either you can connect or you can't. If you can connect, what difference
>>>does the port number make to your download speed?

>>
>>because you will only be able to connect to some peers (connectable
>>ones). Being connectable allows you connect to all of them, hence giving
>>greater speeds. Also the port number is important because some ISPs
>>throttle common P2P ports. Even if yours doesnt, it can still affect
>>your speeds as the ISPs of other peers may be throttling the port you
>>are using.

>
>
> It seems to me those two points are contradictory. Pinholing well-known
> ports makes you "connectable", but those well-known ports are also the
> most likely ones to be throttled by the ISPs. The only way to avoid this
> throttling is not to use the well-known ports.

yes, so you configure your client to use, say port 28960, TCP and UDP.
This port is unlikely to be throttled as it is also used by a game (call
of duty) (and i already had it pinholed beacuse of that and am lazy).
Then people can connect to you, and they won't be throttled. I dont see
how the points contradict, I'm saying its best to pinhole, and to do so
on non-standard ports.
 
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~misfit~
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
-=rjh=- wrote:
> ~misfit~ wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4338c742$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> "~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I tried [BitTorrent] once and was unsuccessful at setting it up.
>>>> I've since been using eMule. Any chance of a Q&D guide on clients
>>>> etc?
>>>
>>> I just downloaded and installed the 4.1.4 beta of the reference
>>> Python implementation on my SuSE 9.1 box, after earlier fluffing
>>> around with the 4.0.4 "release" version. The GUI tool won't
>>> work--needs a newer version of PyGTK, but the command-line-oriented
>>> bittorrent-console runs just fine. I just do
>>>
>>> bittorrent-console <torrent-file>
>>>
>>> and it goes away and does its thing. No setup/configuration required
>>> at all.

>>
>>
>> Ok, thanks. I'm not sure how that will go with my XP Pro install.

>
> I'm using Azureus; it is a real pig (slow to load, uses Java and heaps
> of memory) but works OK. Lots of features and configuration options,
> reasonable interface.
>
> Can use plugins, checks for updates automatically (and uses BT to
> download them, of course). Well maintained project, lots of activity.
>
> I'm using ports 7881-9 and have these opened on my ADSL router -
> forwarded to the box Azureus is running on.
>
> Works well enough. For now.


Thanks, I might have a play.
--
~misfit~


 
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~misfit~
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> "~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> In article <4338c742$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> "~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I tried [BitTorrent] once and was unsuccessful at setting it up.
>>>> I've since been using eMule. Any chance of a Q&D guide on clients
>>>> etc?
>>>
>>> I just downloaded and installed the 4.1.4 beta of the reference
>>> Python implementation on my SuSE 9.1 box, after earlier fluffing
>>> around with the 4.0.4 "release" version. The GUI tool won't
>>> work--needs a newer version of PyGTK, but the command-line-oriented
>>> bittorrent-console runs just fine. I just do
>>>
>>> bittorrent-console <torrent-file>
>>>
>>> and it goes away and does its thing. No setup/configuration required
>>> at all.

>>
>> Ok, thanks. I'm not sure how that will go with my XP Pro install.

>
> Why not just install Python?


Is it available multi-platform? I just assumed you were doing the Linux
pushing thing again and didn't look into it.
--
~misfit~


 
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Brendan
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:17:30 +1200, ~misfit~ wrote:

> I tried it once and was unsuccessful at setting it up. I've since been using
> eMule. Any chance of a Q&D guide on clients etc?


Installed and use bitcomet, no problems. Free, and free of spyware etc.

'ABC' is also good. Bitcomet is better though - faster, small memory use,
no need to recheck uploads when restarting, etc. Will autoconfig your uPNP
firewall (xp's built in one).

--

.... Brendan

#9322 +(6736)- [X]

<tag> Ouroboros: lets play Pong
<Ouroboros> Ok.
<tag> | .
<Ouroboros> . |
<tag> | .
<Ouroboros> . |
<tag> | .
<Ouroboros> | .
<Ouroboros> Whoops


Note: All my comments are copyright 30/09/2005 1:55:01 p.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      09-30-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> "~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> In article <4338c742$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> "~misfit~" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I tried [BitTorrent] once and was unsuccessful at setting it up.
>>>>> I've since been using eMule. Any chance of a Q&D guide on clients
>>>>> etc?
>>>>
>>>> I just downloaded and installed the 4.1.4 beta of the reference
>>>> Python implementation on my SuSE 9.1 box, after earlier fluffing
>>>> around with the 4.0.4 "release" version. The GUI tool won't
>>>> work--needs a newer version of PyGTK, but the command-line-oriented
>>>> bittorrent-console runs just fine. I just do
>>>>
>>>> bittorrent-console <torrent-file>
>>>>
>>>> and it goes away and does its thing. No setup/configuration required
>>>> at all.
>>>
>>> Ok, thanks. I'm not sure how that will go with my XP Pro install.

>>
>> Why not just install Python?

>
>Is it available multi-platform? I just assumed you were doing the Linux
>pushing thing again and didn't look into it.


Did you try looking it up? Some people want everything served to them on
a plate.
 
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