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I hate Windows

 
 
David Preece
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      11-12-2004
Mr Scebe wrote:
> Ok, so you're saying that Linux doesn't care if you had a corrupt ESCI, it
> would just boot anyway (according to your original post)?


Either that or the ESCI wasn't actually corrupt. Given that I managed to
get the BIOS to rebuild it and that didn't fix the problem, I assume
that this is the case.

> I presume that you were getting a stop error (Blue screen of death)? Did you
> try searching on that?


It was an unmountable root volume. Lots of people reported it after the
mup.sys thing.

> Apart from all of this, i still can't reconcile how you think it's MS's
> fault for not having a driver installed on their CD for a piece of hardware
> that wasn't around when the OS was built. Or is your complaint the fact that
> you need to install the driver from a floppy rather than a CD?


It's not particularly MS's fault, per se. I think it's endemic of a flaw
in the entire industry. How so much can be spent on R&D to deliver such
a consistently and entirely foul consumer experience is beyond me.

Dave

 
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MarkH
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      11-12-2004
David Preece <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:cC%kd.1010$(E-Mail Removed):

> I know this too. The question is: does nForce have the same problem?
> If if so, why's it so hard to make a SATA interface that looks like an
> ATA one to the operating system?


Ooh, I know this.

Because ATA is old legacy stuff and it is easier/better to use proper SATA
interface with many limitations/problems long since sorted. Surely it is a
big pain for motherboard manufacturers to have to couple every new
technology with a way to make it look like old tech to the OS?

The big question is: Why can't I tell WinXP to look on the CD instead if
there is no FDD?


--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 7-Nov-04)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

 
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David Preece
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      11-12-2004
Brendan wrote:
> Make sure you install the official athlon 64 drivers for the cpu (available
> on www.amd.com). Helps a bit with stability too.


OK.

> Make sure you install the mb chipset drivers as well... (I assume you did
> this already).


Yup.
>
> Check the PSU levels. Especially the +12v line. Make sure they are all on
> spec.


The PSU is an Antec one - this was the most notable of my non-skimping
excercises. I was keen on getting a stable box ... oh, the irony.

>>Installing XP on this
>>was a complete nightmare until, a number of hours later, I realised you
>>have to press F6 at the start of the boot process


> With my athlon 64 XP system, I did that from the first. I agree they should
> also accept CDROM's, usb drives, etc. But the line has to be drawn
> somewhere - it's only an install app after all..


The bit that gets me is that it's necessary to install at all. Why not
make the chipset fall back to an ATA (or even PIO) compatible mode for
installation? It seems no biggie for video card manufacturers to
bootstrap off VGA.

> I discovered my nforce 3 based MB didn't actually NEED the driver floppy to
> install XP; the nforce ide drivers could be installed after the os boots.


Ah. On a SATA disk?
>
> One thing though: how big is the HD you are installing XP to ? Apparently,
> XP without service pack 1 or better installed do not do drives over 137GB.


Aha! More insight. The drive is 150GB - although I'm fairly (but not
completely) sure that the SuSE partition took 20 of those. I did
initially install SP2 but had to roll it back because it broke something
that was needed for work.

> KISS = 1st partition on a
> clean drive, called C:, and this is the os install boot system drive.


Right will do. Particularly seeing as how a reinstall is now looking
like a necessity.

> My experience of windows XP has been pretty good. It's been reliable and
> robust, and if we could get rid of the stupid microsoft mentality from it,
> it'd be great.


The NT kernel has certainly had a long time to mature and I'm surprised
that problems this large still exist. This is one of the things that's
increasingly sending me towards a new motherboard.

> I did have some fun with it, when I installed it on my new athlon 64
> system. But I was also playing with two seperate software RAID systems at
> the time and image backups (TIP: software RAID + boot CD disk imaging
> systems generally cannot be made to work)...


I have no intention of running RAID - what with only have one disk and all.

>>So I get it home and swap the video card (my GF6800 had been sitting in
>>another box while the machine was at work).


> Make sure you have all the power connectors connected to that card
> correctly, AND the PSU is holding the voltages steady.


Yeah, I know. Hence the expensive PSU.

> Make sure your comp is not connected to the net - especially via a LAN -
> during setup. So you do not get a worm from the net...


It's behind an address translator.

> Maybe the ram is faulty or incompatible with your MB (borrow a mates ram
> for a day).


It worked fine for ages. Well, as best as I could tell anyway. Mushkin
ram - should be good.

> Maybe the motherboard is flaky.


Seems likely.

>>Suse 9.1 boots just fine, BTW.

>
> Which would tend to suggest a software problem. Likely drivers.


Hmmmmm.

Thanks, that was helpful.

Dave

 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-12-2004
In article <2LYkd.971$(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on Fri, 12
Nov 2004 19:28:54 +1300, David Preece <(E-Mail Removed)>
says...
> It's astounding. Every time I think I'm getting over hating Windows it
> makes DAMN SURE I have a complete nightmare of some description.
>
> Today's example follows the continuing exploits of a 2 month old Athlon
> 64. We have brand name memory, hard drive, motherboard and none of the
> tightarse skimping for which I am rightly famous. Installing XP on this
> was a complete nightmare until, a number of hours later, I realised you
> have to press F6 at the start of the boot process and put in a floppy
> disk (a floppy, I ask you) in order to install Windows. Like, of course
> you would in 2004.


Like I do when I want to install XP over a network.

> Shortly after getting the machine built my company had a contractor come
> and work for it. He used it for six weeks and it only failed a few
> times, costing real genuine money every time. But hey, it's windows,
> it's supposed to **** itself right?


Bulldust, it means you don't know what you're doing

> So I get it home and swap the video card (my GF6800 had been sitting in
> another box while the machine was at work). The machine boots, reckons
> it's lost the video card driver and drops a vga one in instead then
> stalls. It does the same thing a few more times then stops booting at
> all. Safe mode reveals it to have stopped at mup.sys
>
> Anyone here googled for mup.sys? Seen the LEGIONS of people suffering
> from this? Read comments from the people who fix PC's for a living and
> see this EVERY ****ING DAY? Anybody feel a twinge of understanding for
> those saying "I've been trying to fix this for two days"?


No, we never have any problems, bad video card drivers are not the fault
of MS who have no control over the hardware that people put into their
machines.

> So I've tried everything in these damn forums. Forcing the bios to
> rebuild ESCI; moving memory chips around; disabling USB; getting the
> recovery console up and doing a chkdsk /r ... no joy.
>
> Suse 9.1 boots just fine, BTW.
>
> So maybe it's the motherboard. Maybe it's the SATA drivers I needed to
> install. Maybe there's a timing issue on VIA K8thingy chipsets. Maybe
> I've been stupid and tried to use windows while the tide was rising on a
> full moon. Who ****ing knows? All I know is that as the basis for a
> computing device, Windows XP has failed absolutely and completely. For
> both business and home. I would quite like to recover the contents of
> this drive, but the number of "reinstalling always fixes mup.sys
> problems for me" posts seem to indicate that perhaps this is not an
> option. We will need to do some more Windows development and
> reisntalling XP, Visual studio, a bunch of third party tools and a
> couple of dependent libraries is going to take a non-trivial quantity of
> time. Not to mention the damn-near certainty that it's going to happen
> again. Good job the source code I care about is held on subversion on a
> nice reliable Linux box.
>
> What an absolute pile of crap. The only upside to this is that my family
> (on both sides) have now seen the light and are buying Macs.


Mac and PC are chalk and cheese. The Mac hardware spec is tightly
controlled by Apple which means none of the innumerable hardware
compatibility issues that MS has to allow for in Windows.

> As an aside, if anyone *does* know what causes this and can suggest a
> way of preventing it from happening - I'm all ears. See related post
> below...


LOL
 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-12-2004
In article <i_7ld.4929522$(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on Fri,
12 Nov 2004 19:16:30 GMT, MarkH <(E-Mail Removed)> says...
> David Preece <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:cC%kd.1010$(E-Mail Removed):
>
> > I know this too. The question is: does nForce have the same problem?
> > If if so, why's it so hard to make a SATA interface that looks like an
> > ATA one to the operating system?

>
> Ooh, I know this.
>
> Because ATA is old legacy stuff and it is easier/better to use proper SATA
> interface with many limitations/problems long since sorted. Surely it is a
> big pain for motherboard manufacturers to have to couple every new
> technology with a way to make it look like old tech to the OS?
>
> The big question is: Why can't I tell WinXP to look on the CD instead if
> there is no FDD?


There is a process for that, if you have not followed it or there is
actually no driver on the CD for your Hardware it will not work obviously
 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-12-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on
Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:06:06 +1300, Enkidu <(E-Mail Removed)> says...
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:14:16 +1300, "Mr Scebe" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
> >
> >I have used RIS extensively and a PC can be brought up on the
> >network within half an hour or so - automated, fully patched and ready to
> >go.
> >

> Apart from the fact that I've never before met anyone who got RIS to
> work - it always fails at the "Hit F12" stage, it's not a practical
> solution for two or three PCs.


Maybe not, but an automated install CD is.
 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-12-2004
In article <lptoppvwhqqv$(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on Sat, 13 Nov
2004 00:05:18 +1300, Brendan <(E-Mail Removed)> says...

> With my athlon 64 XP system, I did that from the first. I agree they should
> also accept CDROM's, usb drives, etc. But the line has to be drawn
> somewhere - it's only an install app after all..
>
> I discovered my nforce 3 based MB didn't actually NEED the driver floppy to
> install XP; the nforce ide drivers could be installed after the os boots.
>
> One thing though: how big is the HD you are installing XP to ? Apparently,
> XP without service pack 1 or better installed do not do drives over 137GB.


Drives bigger than this are handled by an LBA extension called 48-bit
LBA. This requires BIOS and operating system support.

I can't recall exactly what will happen if the drive is bigger, whether
it can only access the first 137GB (128GiB) or simply refuses to access
at all.

 
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Enkidu
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      11-12-2004
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:36:21 +1300, "Mr Scebe" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>
>"Enkidu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:14:16 +1300, "Mr Scebe" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >I have used RIS extensively and a PC can be brought up on the
>> >network within half an hour or so - automated, fully patched and ready to
>> >go.
>> >

>> Apart from the fact that I've never before met anyone who got RIS to
>> work - it always fails at the "Hit F12" stage, it's not a practical
>> solution for two or three PCs.

>
>That's probably because it doesn't have the correct drivers for the network
>card. Under 2000 there was limited support for network cards, but you can
>install more drivers using this method:
>http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;246184
>
>Caution: if you're trying to do it on Compaq deskpro's then there were some
>secondary issues with the network drivers that they supplied - i had a ****
>of a job getting them working at the time (with Intel NIC's). I've just
>tried searching google for the site that i found the solution on, but i
>couldn't see it (this was a couple of years ago). Try this out:
>http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en...S+driver&meta=
>

One Microsoft course I went on they tried to demonstrate RIS. Got as
far as the F12 prompt and it stopped. Using standard NICs according to
the tutor. That's not the only case where I've heard of it not
working. I've never heard of it working properly.

Cheers,

Cliff
 
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Jamie Kahn Genet
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      11-12-2004
steven <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip]
> lol - hey got a joke for you
>
> how do you upgrade a Mac? You buy another one
>
> well i found it funny!


Not so. I've even upgraded the processor of my Rev c tray-loading iMac
using a Sonnet Harmoni upgrade (has 600MHz G3 and adds Firewire). The
vast majority of Macs are upgradeable (even many Apple says otherwise
about - such as my old iMac).

Besides - if you actually plan to upgrade get a G3, G4 or G5 tower. All
the slots, internal, external ports and upgrade options the Mac geek
could ever want.
OTOH, if you bought an iMac you can't seriously expect to have the same
options you might have with a tower. You get what you pay for. Same as
with anything. Hardly peculiar to Macs.

Regards,
Jamie Kahn Genet
--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
 
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Enkidu
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      11-12-2004
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:36:39 +1300, David Preece
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>I just want to connect a disk. If I had known that SATA was going to be
>such a pain in the arse I would have just got an ATA drive and be done
>with it.
>

Well SATA came out after XP, didn't it? So you wouldn't have SATA
drivers on the OS disk. The MB would have to support parallel ATA
emulation or the MB manufacturers would have to provide the drivers on
some medium. Personally, I don't see why a CD or USB wouldn't do for
these specialised drivers but still, it's a problem with the MB isn't
it? You wouldn't expect MS to provide service for an unknown
technology on the CD, although maybe the new CDs slipstreamed with SP2
might do it.

Cheers,

Cliff
 
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