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My experiences with Linux of recently.

 
 
tatties
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      11-12-2004

"Waylon Kenning" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:17:53 +1300 was when "tatties"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
>>Linux will really suffer without him, but if he can't figure out **** like
>>this he will have no chance getting his head around LTSP.

> How can I be expected to put software into schools when I come up
> against basic errors like drives not automounting correctly? Do you
> really want me to tell the woodwork teacher who hasn't had
> professional development in 30 years to type "umount /dev/cdrom then
> eject, wash rinse and repeat"?


Thats one distributions release engineering, you seem to have picked the
latest version of a development project built on a development project
and....
Nothing
You stopped, gave up.
You didn't try version 4.0 built on Fedora Core 1
You just had a rant here about how you had to give up on linux.
If you had been using xandros 2.0 it would have just detected your modem and
installed it.


>
>>He made his choice, he bought the modem, the modem manufacturer told him
>>that the modem was made for Windows and included Windows software only. It
>>wouldn't work on Windows without that driver, ie without the driver it is
>>not a modem, only a component of one.

> Actually, when buying the computer (not that I knew what linux was at
> the time), no where did it state that that modem only featured Windows
> drivers only and was for the most part incompatible with other
> operating systems. In fact, I don't know if current computer
> manufacturers have statements like that either. Not all consumers !=
> members of nz.comp and are used to thinking about things such as
> these.
>
> So I plead ignorance as my defense


It doesn't get you anywhere
Everyone starts with the same available kit and the same available free
software.
I'm puzzling through trying to configure alsa and ices as an icecast source
for two live radio stations at the moment, its taken days for me to even get
them compiled.
Its not because linux is crap its because I don't know what I'm doing.
Or I could spend $30000 on an off the shelf solution.
Does anyone here know if its possible to run two streamer sources from
separate soundcards out different ports on the same pc ?




> --
> Regards,
> Waylon Kenning.
>
> 1st Year B.I.T. WelTec



 
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tatties
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      11-12-2004

"Mr Scebe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:eDWkd.701$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> No the manufacturers, like everyone need to identify their target market -
> in this case they've determined that Linux doesn't register on their
> radar,
> that they are making a product specifically for Windows (or does Winmodem
> mean something else?) and they presumably don't see that they're missing
> any
> sales by not providing for a small niche market segment.
>


Really ?

Intel provide linux drivers for their modem chipset.
http://downloadfinder.intel.com/scri...*&submit=Go%21
Agere provide a core driver written and maintained by their engineer which
is interfaced by the ltmodem
projecthttp://www.physcip.uni-stuttgart.de/heby/ltmodem/
The Conexant modems have a project which is commercial and included in some
consumer distributions http://www.linuxant.com/company/

They are all in xandros and lindows.


 
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tatties
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      11-12-2004

"Waylon Kenning" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:04:00 +1300 was when David Preece
> <(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
>>Precisely. Desktop Linux in high density, single image corporate
>>installs is just starting to become a good idea. But where you have a
>>wide variety of hardware and a paucity of tech support (I just met a guy
>>who is the sole support resource for 46 schools), this kind of crap is
>>just not going to cut the mustard.

>
> I'm glad someone understands my way of thinking
>


You better tell these guys that two nerds having a bad day in NZ think they
should give up then
http://www.xandros.com/products/educ...edu_intro.html


 
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Waylon Kenning
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      11-12-2004
It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:35:09 +1300 was when "tatties"
<(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...

>You better tell these guys that two nerds having a bad day in NZ think they
>should give up then
>http://www.xandros.com/products/educ...edu_intro.html


Oh really, that's awesome! And their desktop business edition at only
$129US per machine
(http://www.xandros.com/products/shopping_business.html) is really
such a steal! Especially since schools have their upgrades to Windows
XP Professional paid for by you and me, so I don't think Xandros can
compete there.

That page doesn't say anything unique to Xandros, just says Linux is
good for schools for some broad reasons. Where's the case studies?
Where's the actual implementations in schools? What makes Xandros any
more suitable for schools than Mandrake except Xandros has an
educational page on their website?

To implement an OS change at say a high school is a big deal. First
you must convince technical support, often the ICT Director in why XX
Distribution will make life easier from a support point of view. Bare
in mind, not all Administrators throughout all facets of computing
have experience in Linux, so there are PD costs there. If you happen
to be the ICT director, you must then convince your Computing
Department since they'll be your minions when it comes to PD and
spreading the good word. You must show them why it'd be of advantage
to switch to XX Distribution, and tell them how much easier it'd be to
use, and why they can't use their favorite program from 1996 that does
some obscure thing under XX distribution because it was written
specifically for Windows. Then there's convincing middle management
(Deputy Principals, Assistant Principals) and the Principal in how XX
distribution has lower costs compared to Windows XP Professional
upgrade which schools have access to through the Microsoft Schools
Agreement with the Government. Then there's convincing the Board of
Trustees that switching to XX distribution will be a good idea for the
school through more efficient use of ICT and at a lower cost.

Honestly, I'm not against Linux, it's just that people can't seem to
understand why currently it's not a viable solutions for schools such
as ones in the middle of no where that only have one teacher who
couldn't care less why their modem doesn't work with linux or not just
the fact that it doesn't work.
--
Regards,
Waylon Kenning.

1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
 
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tatties
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-12-2004

"Waylon Kenning" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:35:09 +1300 was when "tatties"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
>>You better tell these guys that two nerds having a bad day in NZ think
>>they
>>should give up then
>>http://www.xandros.com/products/educ...edu_intro.html

>
> Oh really, that's awesome! And their desktop business edition at only
> $129US per machine
> (http://www.xandros.com/products/shopping_business.html) is really
> such a steal! Especially since schools have their upgrades to Windows
> XP Professional paid for by you and me, so I don't think Xandros can
> compete there.
>
> That page doesn't say anything unique to Xandros, just says Linux is
> good for schools for some broad reasons. Where's the case studies?
> Where's the actual implementations in schools? What makes Xandros any
> more suitable for schools than Mandrake except Xandros has an
> educational page on their website?
>
> To implement an OS change at say a high school is a big deal. First
> you must convince technical support, often the ICT Director in why XX
> Distribution will make life easier from a support point of view. Bare
> in mind, not all Administrators throughout all facets of computing
> have experience in Linux, so there are PD costs there. If you happen
> to be the ICT director, you must then convince your Computing
> Department since they'll be your minions when it comes to PD and
> spreading the good word. You must show them why it'd be of advantage
> to switch to XX Distribution, and tell them how much easier it'd be to
> use, and why they can't use their favorite program from 1996 that does
> some obscure thing under XX distribution because it was written
> specifically for Windows. Then there's convincing middle management
> (Deputy Principals, Assistant Principals) and the Principal in how XX
> distribution has lower costs compared to Windows XP Professional
> upgrade which schools have access to through the Microsoft Schools
> Agreement with the Government. Then there's convincing the Board of
> Trustees that switching to XX distribution will be a good idea for the
> school through more efficient use of ICT and at a lower cost.
>
> Honestly, I'm not against Linux, it's just that people can't seem to
> understand why currently it's not a viable solutions for schools such
> as ones in the middle of no where that only have one teacher who
> couldn't care less why their modem doesn't work with linux or not just
> the fact that it doesn't work.


But the modem does work with LINUX just not the distribution binaries that
you chose by accident or design to moan about.

I don't understand why you are agonising over it in the first place, I can't
believe that support for a conexant modem was much of a reason to give up
though, thats got nothing to do with thinclients
And the fix for the bootloader has been published and thats got f all to do
with an installation of LTSP either.
You have come up with the real reason now, the schools are already using
Windows and happy with it so why bother ?


 
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Waylon Kenning
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      11-12-2004
It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:10:50 +1300 was when "tatties"
<(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...

>Thats one distributions release engineering, you seem to have picked the
>latest version of a development project built on a development project
>and....
>Nothing
>You stopped, gave up.
>You didn't try version 4.0 built on Fedora Core 1
>You just had a rant here about how you had to give up on linux.
>If you had been using xandros 2.0 it would have just detected your modem and
>installed it.


You seem to misunderstood the point I was making. K12LTSP (and by that
extension Fedora Core 2) is not viable as an desktop operating system
for current New Zealand schools yet. I was pointing out why.

However, I am doing something to fix that. My plans are to take
K12LTSP and create a basic hardware compatibility list that has ease
of use, stability and cost in mind, then create scripts to automate
most administration tasks so Principals/teachers in one teacher
schools can administer their server because the local computer
technician lives 1 hour away, and finally create easy to use
professional development resources so teachers understand how to
administer their server, and how to do the other things they want to
do.

I am sick of people saying "Oh it's just so simple, just get a
hardware modem, just use a different distribution, just use a
different command, just do something differently" etc... It is easy to
use if you know the difference between a controllerless modem and a
full hardware modem. It is easy to use if you happen to know the
umount and eject commands. It is easy to use if you happen to know to
search the fedora mailing list archives for an answer to your install
problem. However typical users within schools do not know this
information nor have any wish to. Linux will never have *any* market
penetration within education unless people understand what it's like
to be a user with no real computer skills trying to run a class or a
school, while having to deal with things like the CDROM not
automounting?

Here's an interesting side note. What's the best place to gain
grassroots support for operating systems other than Linux? Schools,
because everyone goes through schools. And there you will find true
support for the cause and really switch a lot of people over to linux.
And if people can do a better job than me with integrating linux
desktops into schools, then I'm quite happy to go back and develop
professional development resources for schools.
--
Regards,
Waylon Kenning.

1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
 
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Waylon Kenning
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      11-12-2004
It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:20:14 +1300 was when "tatties"
<(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...

>I don't understand why you are agonising over it in the first place, I can't
>believe that support for a conexant modem was much of a reason to give up
>though, thats got nothing to do with thinclients

No it doesn't, however it does have everything to do with how the
terminal server connects to the internet.

>And the fix for the bootloader has been published and thats got f all to do
>with an installation of LTSP either.

No, it's a generic 2.6 kernel problem.

>You have come up with the real reason now, the schools are already using
>Windows and happy with it so why bother ?

Choice. If you don't understand that, never mind.
--
Regards,
Waylon Kenning.

1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
 
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Bret
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      11-12-2004
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:05:04 +1300, Waylon Kenning wrote:

>>You have come up with the real reason now, the schools are already using
>>Windows and happy with it so why bother ?

> Choice. If you don't understand that, never mind.


You are a brave man taking on such a task Waylon.

 
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro
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      11-12-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Waylon Kenning <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>One advantage of Linux is the wealth of software that comes with
>normal distributions. So I decide to install additional software from
>the distribution cds. This proceeds relatively painlessly until
>Automount stops working. That's right, no more CD on the desktop
>appears, and no amount of pressing the eject button on the CDROM will
>allow the tray to appear. Using my rudimentary knowledge of command
>line things, I type "umount /dev/cdrom" followed by "eject" and repeat
>every time the installer wants to install a new program.


Why didn't you try fixing the automount?

>Which BTW,
>doesn't install all programs on disc 1, then programs on disc 2 etc...
>but installs a couple of programs on disc 1, then some on disc 2, then
>a couple more on disc 1 etc... The net result is that I typed the
>eject command about 15 times.


You'd already got the basic Linux installation working by this stage,
right? So why not copy all the installation CDs into a directory on the
hard drive, and do all further installs from there?

Or alternatively, make an installation DVD.
 
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tatties
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      11-12-2004

"Waylon Kenning" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It seems like Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:20:14 +1300 was when "tatties"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
>>I don't understand why you are agonising over it in the first place, I
>>can't
>>believe that support for a conexant modem was much of a reason to give up
>>though, thats got nothing to do with thinclients

> No it doesn't, however it does have everything to do with how the
> terminal server connects to the internet.


So thats easily fixed with an external modem.
Do schools still use dialup ?

>
>>And the fix for the bootloader has been published and thats got f all to
>>do
>>with an installation of LTSP either.

> No, it's a generic 2.6 kernel problem.


I am running dual boot debian / 2.6 and xp without anything similar
happening.
The problem is a Fedora Core 2 installer bug, and easily fixed, I'm not a
Redhat user but the first google page I got had the solution
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedor.../msg00908.html

But theres not much reason for a school terminal server be dual boot anyway.


>
>>You have come up with the real reason now, the schools are already using
>>Windows and happy with it so why bother ?

> Choice. If you don't understand that, never mind.


You don't seem to believe in encouraging them
These are trivial issues no harder to solve than Windows services,
networking, domain, etc stuff

Probably the next iso will have the installer fixed, thats the way
development works


 
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