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tatties
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      11-04-2004

"Waylon Kenning" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> It seems like Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:32:05 +1300 was when
> http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Jamie Kahn Genet) said Blah blah blah...
>
>>The average user is a jackass. Or totally unwilling to learn. If only
>>the expectations of 'average users' were taken into account we's be
>>living in sh*t and connecting to the 'net via a couple tin cans and
>>string.

>
> Yes, however, the average use often makes things that "advanced" users
> want financially viable. Hey, if it was just the people on this
> newsgroup who wanted broadband, think about how much the telcos would
> be charging you.
>
> Don't knock the average user, after all, it is them who decide where
> technology is going (as shown with the vhs vs. beta debate).


Bad example, the beta cassette mechanism was a lot better.
Thats why they used it for the pro betacam format


 
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tatties
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      11-04-2004

"Jamie Kahn Genet" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1gmr2qi.jb7y3w17vm7r3N%(E-Mail Removed) k.nz...
> tatties <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "Brendan" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:mxguexdihiw6$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> >
>> > If you email the Consumer's Institute, they may tell you exactly what
>> > cases. I do not have the information to hand as I was not expecting to
>> > meet
>> > this level of ignorance.
>> >

>>
>> Report back when you have got some information then, I'm happy to admit
>> that
>> I am completely ignorant of any obligation that isps have to operate a
>> news
>> server.

>
> Not the only thing you're ignorant of, then. I wonder if you'd even be
> able to successfully reproduce if left alone with the opposite sex
> without a diagram.
>
> God almighty there are some thick heads here.


Oooh nasty !

Show me where it says in ANY online document that running an nntp server is
a REQUIREMENT for an isp
Its entirely at their discretion and its your choice whether you choose them
or not on the basis of the services they offer
Either you can admit your IGNORANCE or respond with PROOF that this is a
requirement.

I'm waiting, abusive troll


 
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tatties
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      11-04-2004

"Jamie Kahn Genet" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:1gmr24x.q6b3g61q4shbmN%(E-Mail Removed) k.nz...
> Patrick Dunford <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on Wed, 03
>> Nov 2004 00:04:25 GMT, macca <(E-Mail Removed)> says...
>> > On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:18 +1300, Hmmm <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> > wrote:
>> > > Brendan wrote:

> [snip]
>> > > The role of an isp is simply to offer an internet connection, the
>> > > definition of ISP is that, or have didn't you realise what those
>> > > magical 3 letters stand for?
>> >
>> > The only dick I see in this thread is you..pull your head
>> > out of your arse and see the sunshine. Its apparent to me
>> > that your have not an inkling as to the world of commerce
>> > and the running of a business..if the ISP did not supply
>> > those extras then they would not remain active long,
>> > irrespective of whether thay are obliged to supply these
>> > services or not..the point is moot.

>>
>> There are ISPs around that offer only specialised services such as
>> webhosting. The fact is that the ISP will supply whatever services they
>> can make money off.

>
> And they are not an ISP. Do you have the fogiest clue what I.S.P.
> represents?
>
> Regards,
> Jamie Kahn Genet


We're going to play the definition game now are we ?
Do us a favour and find out what you are talking about before you barge into
a thread spouting invective and rhetoric.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
Most Internet service providers, and many other Internet sites, operate news
servers for their users to access. To read news, one must use newsreader
software—a program which resembles an email client (and is often integrated
with one) but accesses Usenet instead.

Not all Internet sites run news servers. A news server is one of the most
difficult Internet services to administer well, because of the complexity
and data throughput involved. Some ISPs outsource news operation to
specialist sites, which will usually look just the same to a user as if the
ISP ran the server itself. Many sites carry only a restricted newsfeed, with
only a limited number of newsgroups. Commonly omitted from such a newsfeed
are foreign-language newsgroups and the alt.binaries hierarchy which largely
carries software and erotica.

For those who have access to the Internet, but do not have access to a news
server, Google Groups ([1] (http://groups.google.com)) allows reading and
posting of text news groups via the World Wide Web. Though this or other
"news-to-Web gateways" are not always as easy to use as specialized
newsreader software—especially when threads get long—they are often much
easier to search.

There are also Usenet providers which specialize in offering service to
users whose ISPs do not carry news, or which carry a restricted feed. One
list of such providers is available at Jeremy Nixon's list of Usenet
providers (http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/...roviders.html).
There is even a newsgroup for the discussion of news providers specialized
in the binary newsgroups—alt.binaries.news-server-comparison.


 
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Dave - Dave.net.nz
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      11-04-2004
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>There are ISPs around that offer only specialised services such as
>>webhosting. The fact is that the ISP will supply whatever services they
>>can make money off.


> And they are not an ISP. Do you have the fogiest clue what I.S.P.
> represents?


why are they not an ISP?
webhosting is a service provided on the internet.

--
Dave Hall
http://www.dave.net.nz
http://www.karyn.net.nz
 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-05-2004
In article <1gmr24x.q6b3g61q4shbmN%(E-Mail Removed) > in nz.comp
on Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:22:15 +1300, Jamie Kahn Genet
<(E-Mail Removed)> says...
> Patrick Dunford <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > In article <(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on Wed, 03
> > Nov 2004 00:04:25 GMT, macca <(E-Mail Removed)> says...
> > > On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:24:18 +1300, Hmmm <(E-Mail Removed)>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Brendan wrote:

> [snip]
> > > > The role of an isp is simply to offer an internet connection, the
> > > > definition of ISP is that, or have didn't you realise what those
> > > > magical 3 letters stand for?
> > >
> > > The only dick I see in this thread is you..pull your head
> > > out of your arse and see the sunshine. Its apparent to me
> > > that your have not an inkling as to the world of commerce
> > > and the running of a business..if the ISP did not supply
> > > those extras then they would not remain active long,
> > > irrespective of whether thay are obliged to supply these
> > > services or not..the point is moot.

> >
> > There are ISPs around that offer only specialised services such as
> > webhosting. The fact is that the ISP will supply whatever services they
> > can make money off.

>
> And they are not an ISP. Do you have the fogiest clue what I.S.P.
> represents?


Internet Service Provider.

A provider of Internet services
 
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MarkH
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      11-05-2004
Waylon Kenning <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> It seems like Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:05:54 GMT was when MarkH
><(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
>>> But if all NZ ISPs dropped their mail
>>> servers, would you not expect that from an ISP because none have it?
>>> I still certainly would.

>>
>>Really? Why would you expect an ISP to provide a service that ISPs
>>don't generally provide?
>>
>>Personally I would expect to use another provider (like my hosting
>>site) or I would hunt around different ISPs to find out who would
>>offer the service and at what cost. I certainly wouldn't just join an
>>ISP and expect them to offer the service that no NZ ISP offers.

>
> Yeah, fair enough. So if one ISP offers it, it's a bonus. If more than
> 50% of ISPs offer it, I guess it can be constructed as a service, and
> it would be reasonable to expect all ISPs to offer it. What's your
> thoughts on my equation?


Even if 60% of ISPs offer a service, then 40% don't. In other words a
significant % of ISPs don't offer that service. Therefore if you need that
service you should check before you join up with an ISP.

However if 90% of ISPs offer a free usenet service (for example) then the
10% that don't offer one should make it clear that they do not have usenet
available.

If we believe that over 98% of ISPs offer E-Mail, then any ISP that does
not want to offer it would need to be careful. They would have to make it
clear to anyone joining that there is no E-Mail service provided with their
account.

I think that any services offered by over 66% of ISPs should be considered
standard and common courtesy would suggest that the other ISPs should be
decent enough to make it clear that they don't offer that service.

There are some basic things that differ quite a bit. With IHUG you get up
to 5 mail boxes with your account (even the $5 per month account). With
Xtra you only get one mail box, extra mail boxes cost around $2.78/month
(or something like that). When I was with IHUG I thought that other ISPs
would offer something as basic as 3 or more mail boxes so different family
members could use the one internet account, now I know better.


--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

 
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tatties
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      11-05-2004

"MarkH" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:UwBid.4491563$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Even if 60% of ISPs offer a service, then 40% don't. In other words a
> significant % of ISPs don't offer that service. Therefore if you need
> that
> service you should check before you join up with an ISP.
>
> However if 90% of ISPs offer a free usenet service (for example) then the
> 10% that don't offer one should make it clear that they do not have usenet
> available.
>
> If we believe that over 98% of ISPs offer E-Mail, then any ISP that does
> not want to offer it would need to be careful. They would have to make it
> clear to anyone joining that there is no E-Mail service provided with
> their
> account.
>
> I think that any services offered by over 66% of ISPs should be considered
> standard and common courtesy would suggest that the other ISPs should be
> decent enough to make it clear that they don't offer that service.
>


There is a principle of commerce called caveat emptor.
That means that the purchaser is responsible for ascertaining the quality of
the merchandise.
If an isp such as this one http://www.xtreme.net.nz/support.shtml makes no
mention of usenet or nntp it would be reasonable to assume that they don't
offer any.


 
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Waylon Kenning
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      11-05-2004
It seems like Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:24:04 +1300 was when Patrick Dunford
<(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...

>Internet Service Provider.
>
>A provider of Internet services


Uh, and what's the definition of Internet Services?
--
Regards,
Waylon Kenning.

1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
 
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Patrick Dunford
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      11-05-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)> in nz.comp on
Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:57:09 +1300, Waylon Kenning
<(E-Mail Removed)> says...
> It seems like Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:24:04 +1300 was when Patrick Dunford
> <(E-Mail Removed)> said Blah blah blah...
>
> >Internet Service Provider.
> >
> >A provider of Internet services

>
> Uh, and what's the definition of Internet Services?


A service supplied on or via the Internet?

 
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Brendan
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      11-05-2004
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:32:06 +1300, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

>> Actual case law.
>>
>> If you email the Consumer's Institute, they may tell you exactly what
>> cases. I do not have the information to hand as I was not expecting to meet
>> this level of ignorance.

>
> Christ, you must have high expectations in here!


Apparently... Foolish eh ?

--

.... Brendan

If it sounds GOOD to YOU, it's bitchen; and if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's
shitty.

Note: All my comments are copyright 5/11/2004 3:34:22 p.m. and are opinion only where not otherwise stated and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
 
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