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Hi all,

Remember the wehavethewayout campaign, started in 2002 by Microsoft and
Unisys? <http://wehavethewayout.com/us/index.asp>

It used to contain a more provocative picture of painting yourself into a
corner: <http://web.archive.org/web/20020526235345/http://www.wehavethewayout.com/>

Sun streaming in with purple paint was an allusion to Sun hardware:
<http://www.sun.com/servers/midrange/sunfire4800/images/I1_hw_sunfire4800_lg.jpg>

It ran with this slogan:
<http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/24640/24640.html>

Microsoft and high-end hardware partner Unisys are spending $25 million
to promote Windows Datacenter server as a viable alternative to UNIX.
"We have the way out," one ad reads. "No wonder Unix makes you feel
boxed in. It ties you to an inflexible system. It requires you to pay
for expensive experts. It makes you struggle daily with a server
environment that's more complex than ever." Almost as humorous is the
response of Sun Microsystems, which sells the high-end UNIX systems
Microsoft and Unisys is targeting. "Sun does not see Microsoft as a
real threat in the data center market where reliability, availability,
serviceability and security are key," a Sun statement reads. "As for
UNIX being 'inflexible,' 'expensive,' and 'complex,' we feel those are
terms much better suited to the closed and proprietary world of
Windows." Ahahaha. Just sit back and watch the two hissing cats circle
each other: This one could get ugly.

Unix, or more specifically Linux, has had the last laugh. Here's today's
Computerworld NZ news:

"Unisys puts Linux on high-end Intel servers"
Meeting customer demand, Unisys says
<http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/676F9DF19EF95CB9CC256EF4002D47C7?OpenDocument>

Rawsthorn says Unisys isn't turning its back on Microsoft, supplier of
the Windows operating systems that previously shipped on all ES7000
models.

"We see this as an incremental revenue opportunity for us with Linux.
We don't see it detracting from what we do with Microsoft," Rawsthorn
says. The company was prevented from bidding for some contracts because
it did not support Linux, he says.

Unisys is planning to expand its ES7000 range in the near future, and
future models will be compatible with Microsoft's operating systems,
says Rawsthorn.

Unisys said some organisations are already running Linux on ES7000
machines, including Pennsylvania State University, the Florida
Department of Children and Families, South African healthcare provider
MedScheme and Policia Investigaciones de Chile, the Chilean equivalent
of the US FBI.

These early adopters had "very little" help from Unisys in doing so,
Rawsthorn says.

One area where Linux may steal a march on Microsoft's operating system
is in its support for dynamic partitioning.

ES7000 hardware has been ready for dynamic partitioning for years, but
so far no operating system has been able to make use of it, according
to Andy Carter, Unisys server product manager for EMEA. "You won't have that
in Windows until Longhorn comes along," he says.


You may notice that Unisys is bending over backwards to reassure customers
that Microsoft Windows will continue to be supported. Microsoft in server
space has become a riskier choice with an uncertain future.

Unfortunately for Microsoft, "Unix is a computer virus with a user
interface." Download a copy of The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from microsoft.com
to see for yourself: <http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html>

Regards,
Adam

Adam Warner wrote:
> Unfortunately for Microsoft, "Unix is a computer virus with a user
> interface." Download a copy of The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from microsoft.com
> to see for yourself: <http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html>

heh, from http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/
"I am no longer with Microsoft, having moved my research activities over
to the University of Washington. I have not yet set up pages there, and
hopefully there will be a redirect once those pages are in place. You
can reach me as weise at [cs.washington.edu]."


and also have a read of this.
http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/uhh-download.html


--
Dave Hall
http://www.dave.net.nz

Adam Warner wrote:

> One*area*where*Linux*may*steal*a*march*on*Microsoft's*operating*system
> is*in*its*support*for*dynamic*partitioning.
>
> ES7000*hardware*has*been*ready*for*dynamic*partitioning*for*years,*but
> so*far*no*operating*system*has*been*able*to*make*use*of*it,*according
> to*Andy*Carter,*Unisys*server*product*manager*for*EMEA.*"You*won't*have
> that in*Windows*until*Longhorn*comes*along,"*he*says.

Interesting....and puts the lie to those who claim Open Source is
derivative, unable to innovate.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:56:17 +1200, Adam Warner wrote:

one could get ugly.
>
> Unix, or more specifically Linux, has had the last laugh. Here's today's
> Computerworld NZ news:
>
> "Unisys puts Linux on high-end Intel servers" Meeting customer demand,
> Unisys says
> <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/676F9DF19EF95CB9CC256EF4002D47C7?OpenDocument>

It was on /. from memory, I think it just reflects the movement in the US
( due to it's market size ) to linux servers & the problems in trying to
get Windows to scale, in terms of mgmt & also machinery.

IBM won't be best happy though, they might have some real competition now
in the linux on Main Frame business, which has done well for them from all
accounts.


>
> Unfortunately for Microsoft, "Unix is a computer virus with a user
> interface." Download a copy of The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from microsoft.com
> to see for yourself:
> <http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html>
Was sure good to read Dennis Ritchie's Anti-Foreword again.

Nigel

Nigel wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:56:17 +1200, Adam Warner wrote:
>
> one could get ugly.
>
>>Unix, or more specifically Linux, has had the last laugh. Here's today's
>>Computerworld NZ news:
>>
>>"Unisys puts Linux on high-end Intel servers" Meeting customer demand,
>>Unisys says
>><http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/676F9DF19EF95CB9CC256EF4002D47C7?OpenDocument>
>
>
> It was on /. from memory, I think it just reflects the movement in the US
> ( due to it's market size ) to linux servers & the problems in trying to
> get Windows to scale, in terms of mgmt & also machinery.
>
> IBM won't be best happy though, they might have some real competition now
> in the linux on Main Frame business, which has done well for them from all
> accounts.
>
>
>
>>Unfortunately for Microsoft, "Unix is a computer virus with a user
>>interface." Download a copy of The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from microsoft.com
>>to see for yourself:
>><http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html>
>
> Was sure good to read Dennis Ritchie's Anti-Foreword again.
>
> Nigel
>

I remember this box coming out and the NT weenies overjoyed that they
had some hardware to put MS datacentre on and take on us Unix freaks...I
am also pretty sure Unisys were sniddy and said it would not be a linux
box, it was for MS Datacentre only, it didnt sell well........in fact
boy did its sales flop....no one in thier right mind was prepared to pay
an arm and a leg for Datacentre + similar quantities of flesh for
Unisys's hardware and be bleeding edge MS OS with critical data.

I think it had dual datachannel busses etc for redundancy, trouble is
its performance sucked if I recall correctly, its SMP figures didnt
scale well....

So now with a 3? 4? year old design, Unisys hope Linux will revive its
flopped kit...I think not.....Oracle's 9i RAC has surpassed it....the
whole idea of Linux is to get away from the proprietry world.....

If customers want it, does that mean new sales? or customers moving away
from MS Datacentre on existing kit?....

;]

regards

Thing

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:57:07 +1200, thing wrote:

> Nigel wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:56:17 +1200, Adam Warner wrote:
>>
>> one could get ugly.
>>
>>>Unix, or more specifically Linux, has had the last laugh. Here's today's
>>>Computerworld NZ news:
>>>
>>>"Unisys puts Linux on high-end Intel servers" Meeting customer demand,
>>>Unisys says
>>><http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/676F9DF19EF95CB9CC256EF4002D47C7?OpenDocument>
>>
>>
>> It was on /. from memory, I think it just reflects the movement in the
>> US ( due to it's market size ) to linux servers & the problems in trying
>> to get Windows to scale, in terms of mgmt & also machinery.
>>
>> IBM won't be best happy though, they might have some real competition
>> now in the linux on Main Frame business, which has done well for them
>> from all accounts.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Unfortunately for Microsoft, "Unix is a computer virus with a user
>>>interface." Download a copy of The UNIX-HATERS Handbook from
>>>microsoft.com to see for yourself:
>>><http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html>
>>
>> Was sure good to read Dennis Ritchie's Anti-Foreword again.
>>
>> Nigel
>>
>>
> I remember this box coming out and the NT weenies overjoyed that they had
> some hardware to put MS datacentre on and take on us Unix freaks...I am
> also pretty sure Unisys were sniddy and said it would not be a linux box,
> it was for MS Datacentre only, it didnt sell well........in fact boy did
> its sales flop....no one in thier right mind was prepared to pay an arm
> and a leg for Datacentre + similar quantities of flesh for Unisys's
> hardware and be bleeding edge MS OS with critical data.
Exactly, why swap out of lock in from IBM et al, to lock in by Unisys &
Microsoft, especially with MS's stability issues, better to move to linux .

>
> I think it had dual datachannel busses etc for redundancy, trouble is
> its performance sucked if I recall correctly, its SMP figures didnt
> scale well....
That could have been windows not helping to be fair.

The big problem is lock in, US corporates hate the idea of Microsoft
having them by the short & curleys.

>
> So now with a 3? 4? year old design, Unisys hope Linux will revive its
> flopped kit...I think not.....Oracle's 9i RAC has surpassed it....the
> whole idea of Linux is to get away from the proprietry world.....
Not sure I completely agree there. 9i RAC has it's issues too ( I've seen
a 2 system cluster, quad xeons on each node, drop because of a kernel
fault in one node & not just once, was a pretty bad look for what should
have been a redundant system ).
Linux to me gives you hardware independance & alot more software
flexiblity, what linux runs on is less of an issue if you know you can
swap it out & mainframes potentially give you space advantages, though
those HP rack units & extremely cool ( 8 dual proc blades in an blade
enclosure with dual gigabit switches on the backplane ).

>
> If customers want it, does that mean new sales? or customers moving away
> from MS Datacentre on existing kit?....
Tough to know, but I suspect the Mainframe linux sales will not go away,
there are clients who want that level of hardware design & centralisation,
I think anyway.
So my call would be new sales & people moving off MS Datacentre, though
personally I suspect the move off Microsoft will take a while.

Cheers

Nigel

Hi thing,

> Nigel wrote:
>> It was on /. from memory,

Ah, here we go:
<http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/16/2315232&tid=163&tid=1>
<http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/08/16/1747213>

>> I think it just reflects the movement in the US
>> ( due to it's market size ) to linux servers & the problems in trying to
>> get Windows to scale, in terms of mgmt & also machinery.
>>
>> IBM won't be best happy though, they might have some real competition now
>> in the linux on Main Frame business, which has done well for them from all
>> accounts.
>
> I remember this box coming out and the NT weenies overjoyed that they
> had some hardware to put MS datacentre on and take on us Unix freaks...I
> am also pretty sure Unisys were sniddy and said it would not be a linux
> box, it was for MS Datacentre only, it didnt sell well........in fact
> boy did its sales flop....no one in thier right mind was prepared to pay
> an arm and a leg for Datacentre + similar quantities of flesh for
> Unisys's hardware and be bleeding edge MS OS with critical data.

From the NewsForge article:

Gold claimed he didn't have sales figures handy for the ES7000 product
line. I have heard estimates from people who follow the mainframe
market ranging from "a few hundred" to "maybe 1000." This is not a sterling
success for a heavily-marketed enterprise hardware product that's been
out since 2000. The fact that it has been a Windows-only system until
recently may be part of the reason the ES7000 has sold so poorly. As
Gold said in another context, "It's hard to know how many deals we
didn't get to bid on without Linux."

He also said, "What we see is a tremendous amount of activity in the
public space. The public sector is a hot area where we see a lot of
activity around Linux." And, he said, there are many applications
vendors "that want to move into the Linux space."

Regards,
Adam

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:57:07 +1200, thing wrote:

> I think it had dual datachannel busses etc for redundancy, trouble is its
> performance sucked if I recall correctly, its SMP figures didnt scale
> well....

Well it was using Xeons (wasn't there also an Itanium version? I can't
remember), and Xeons aren't exactly known for their SMP scalability.

I wonder how much better it would do with Opterons?

It's about time somebody brought out a 16 or 32 way Opteron system to
really see what the chip can do. Actually even an 8 way would be
interesting.

Cheers
Anton