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John Doe
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      12-11-2003
I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
you think of it ?

I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
framework documentation.

The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
though, or is there an equivalent ?

I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.

The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
language, debugger) ?

Any opinions about it are welcome.
 
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nash the slash
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      12-11-2003
The Gallagher Group aka Cardax dumped jade some time back.



"John Doe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
> couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
> their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
> you think of it ?
>
> I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
> downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
> framework documentation.
>
> The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
> level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
> versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
> though, or is there an equivalent ?
>
> I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
> a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
> visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
> finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
> an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
> poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
> really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.
>
> The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
> really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
> language, debugger) ?
>
> Any opinions about it are welcome.



 
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Allistar
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      12-11-2003
John Doe wrote:

> I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
> couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
> their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
> you think of it ?


I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7 years.
I would recommend it for any database type application without question.

> I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
> downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
> framework documentation.
>
> The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
> level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
> versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
> though, or is there an equivalent ?


When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE is
fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that you
can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you you
can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).

> I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
> a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
> visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
> finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
> an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
> poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
> really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.


You can develop quite graphical applications in it. We have a few that
utilise a graphical interface representing real world objects that can be
dragged and dropped around the screen. I wouldn't use it for anything low
level or time critical though, like device drivers etc.

There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would call a
"data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access relational
data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it needs to it can.

> The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
> really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
> language, debugger) ?


You have complete access to the underlying API, so applications can be
developed in C++ to access the database directly withouth going through the
interpreter.

> Any opinions about it are welcome.


It is overall very impressive.

Allistar.

 
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Jamie Sugrue
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      12-11-2003
I've only had a play with it too. So you can take this with a grain of salt
if you like....

I have a couple of mates you use JADE professionally, one hates it the other
quite likes it.

I have seen some pretty impressive UI stuff done in Jade. They have a
separate app for creating whizzy UI -- cant remember the name off the top of
my head. The bit I liked was the OO database and I liked the language, but I
use Delphi alot so it was familiar to me.

Personally, if I wanted a fully OO framework with OO database I would use
Java with something like Hibernate, otherwise I'll stick to Delphi.


"John Doe" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
> couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
> their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
> you think of it ?
>
> I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
> downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
> framework documentation.
>
> The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
> level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
> versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
> though, or is there an equivalent ?
>
> I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
> a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
> visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
> finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
> an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
> poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
> really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.
>
> The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
> really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
> language, debugger) ?
>
> Any opinions about it are welcome.



 
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John Doe
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-13-2003
Allistar <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<aG4Cb.12581$(E-Mail Removed)>...
> John Doe wrote:
>
> > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
> > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
> > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
> > you think of it ?

>
> I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7 years.
> I would recommend it for any database type application without question.


It depends on how we can define what a database is (see below).

> > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
> > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
> > framework documentation.
> >
> > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
> > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
> > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
> > though, or is there an equivalent ?

>
> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE is
> fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that you
> can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you you
> can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).


Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath
is for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node
hierarchy with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and
inefficient. Now, what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by
other means than raw code is possible, isn't it ?

> > I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
> > a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
> > visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
> > finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
> > an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
> > poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
> > really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.

>
> You can develop quite graphical applications in it. We have a few that
> utilise a graphical interface representing real world objects that can be
> dragged and dropped around the screen. I wouldn't use it for anything low
> level or time critical though, like device drivers etc.


Writing a device driver with JADE would be quite hard. First you would
have to map driver entry points to JADE's interpreted language, not
very easy. Not to mention certain device drivers have a reduced set of
APIs available, you would have to have a pretty good control over how
JADE's execution engine behaves. But that's another question.

> There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would call a
> "data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access relational
> data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it needs to it can.


Once again does JADE provide an alternate approach to make use of its
complexily organised, nested, hierarchical data (I followed one or two
tutorials already) ? I understand the point that JADE is different,
but how good is this difference ? If you could give me an example,
that would be great.

Sounds quite weird to me that you do not seem to use the Table class
very often, as I would use a Datawindow object from Powerbuilder, a
hierarchical flexgrid from VB for example, or thousands of third-party
components for whatever language, designed to ease the presentation of
hierarchical data.
 
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AD.
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-14-2003
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:42:51 -0800, John Doe wrote:

>> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
>> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said
>> that you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational
>> database you you can let legacy applications extract data through an
>> ODBC interface).

>
> Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
> quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath is
> for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node hierarchy
> with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and inefficient. Now,
> what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by other means than raw
> code is possible, isn't it ?


It's an object database isn't it? SQL is designed for relational data.

I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
application, it was eye opening in terms of potential. It had an Object
Query Language that reminded me of Python with respect to data types eg
lists, tuples (and maybe dictionaries?) etc.

I have heard that one reason object databases haven't caught on is that
the schemas end up too tightly coupled to the applications data model.
With relational databases, there is a layer of abstraction that allows
more flexibility for multiple applications to access the same data.

If you want to play around with object database ideas and don't mind
Python, you could always try the open source ZopeDB that funnily enough
comes with Zope. I have no idea how it would work outside Zope though.

Cheers
Anton
 
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madknoxie
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      12-14-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
"AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
> with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
> application, it was eye opening in terms of potential.


What sort of potential do you think object databases hold? I've never
really been able to get my head around it, why it would be better. I
guess my thought process has been corrupted by the relational model and
I can't see past that (yet).

--
madknoxie
$35 .nz domain names: http://www.ivision.co.nz/
 
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Mainlander
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      12-15-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
says...
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:42:51 -0800, John Doe wrote:
>
> >> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
> >> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said
> >> that you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational
> >> database you you can let legacy applications extract data through an
> >> ODBC interface).

> >
> > Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
> > quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath is
> > for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node hierarchy
> > with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and inefficient. Now,
> > what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by other means than raw
> > code is possible, isn't it ?

>
> It's an object database isn't it? SQL is designed for relational data.


In an OO database you are not playing with a result set, the fields in
each record are object instances that can be referenced and used just as
variables are used in normal programming.

JADE provides all the capabilities necessary to retrieve the particular
subset of data you want and to navigate within that subset.

--
Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
 
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Mainlander
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      12-15-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
(E-Mail Removed) says...
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
> > with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
> > application, it was eye opening in terms of potential.

>
> What sort of potential do you think object databases hold? I've never
> really been able to get my head around it, why it would be better. I
> guess my thought process has been corrupted by the relational model and
> I can't see past that (yet).


The ability to do the usual things you can do with OO - abstraction,
encapsulation, polymorphism, inheritance and so on.

In OO programming, the programmer may already use OO extensively to
represent data, to interface this to a relational database requires
extensive conversion code. If you're working with an OO database there is
no need for such code.

--
Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
 
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Allistar
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      12-19-2003
John Doe wrote:

> Allistar <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:<aG4Cb.12581$(E-Mail Removed)>...
>> John Doe wrote:
>>
>> > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
>> > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
>> > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
>> > you think of it ?

>>
>> I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7
>> years. I would recommend it for any database type application without
>> question.

>
> It depends on how we can define what a database is (see below).
>
>> > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
>> > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
>> > framework documentation.
>> >
>> > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
>> > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
>> > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
>> > though, or is there an equivalent ?

>>
>> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
>> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that
>> you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you
>> you can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).

>
> Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
> quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath
> is for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node
> hierarchy with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and
> inefficient. Now, what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by
> other means than raw code is possible, isn't it ?


JADE provides the ability to query and process data, as another poster
pointed our objects are treated as variables in code - not as a RecordSet.
I.e. If you really need to map the object database to a relational one you
can provide a relational view of the OO DB which can be accessed using
ODBC.

>> There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would
>> call a "data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access
>> relational data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it
>> needs to it can.

>
> Once again does JADE provide an alternate approach to make use of its
> complexily organised, nested, hierarchical data (I followed one or two
> tutorials already) ?


Alternate to what?

> I understand the point that JADE is different,
> but how good is this difference ? If you could give me an example,
> that would be great.


One powerful difference is there is no difference fom a development poinf of
view between a persistent object (i.e. one in the database) and a transient
one (i.e. one with a local, normally short liftime). An object is an object
- regardless of where it lives. You get all of the standard benefits of an
OO language, such a polymorphism, enscapsulation etc.

Another advantage is that you can deploy thin or fat clients without
changing your application. A well written application will run over a 36k
modem, will the full power of the Windows (and soon to be Linux) gui.

> Sounds quite weird to me that you do not seem to use the Table class
> very often, as I would use a Datawindow object from Powerbuilder, a
> hierarchical flexgrid from VB for example, or thousands of third-party
> components for whatever language, designed to ease the presentation of
> hierarchical data.


I'm not sure where you get the idea that I don't use the Table class very
often. I take advantage of it quute a bit on the development I have done.

Allistar.

 
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