Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Computing > NZ Computing > Buy PC and get viruses for free.

Reply
Thread Tools

Buy PC and get viruses for free.

 
 
T.N.O.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-10-2003
DUser wrote:
>>The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
>>on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.


> Could I assume that a new Dell would have the firewall enabled ?
> It would save them a lot of support grief for the hard disk image to have
> this default.


The firewall would have to know about some sort of connection to
)presumably) the internet, so no, it isnt enabled bydefault, as no
connection is there.

When n00bs run the wizard, it asks them if they want to enable the firewall.

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
T-Boy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) says...
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:53:41 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:23:31 +1300, Enkidu wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:41:40 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
> >>>contain an updated machine.
> >>>That is what I would expect from Dell for example
> >>>
> >> You'd be wrong to assume that a machine from Dell would be up to date.
> >> Dell, being a large manufacturer, probably gets pre-imaged hard disks
> >> from the HDD supplier. Even if the image was updated every time it was
> >> copied to a HDD (very unlikely) it would likely be a month or two
> >> before a completed machine arrives on your desk.
> >>
> >> The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
> >> on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.

> >
> >Could I assume that a new Dell would have the firewall enabled ?
> >It would save them a lot of support grief for the hard disk image to have
> >this default.
> >

> My guess is no. This is not currently the default on any newly
> installed Windows Operating System.


Yes it is, on XP it is - caveat: you must have setup the internet
connction using the Wizard (otherwise, yes, no firewall enabled if you
do it manually (I guess you have to manually set it .

--
Duncan
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Lennier
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:39:44 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

> David I have to say you always come across as being condescending when you
> make comments like this. Everyone has to start somewhere, when I first sat
> at a PC I was just as ignorant as any first-time user....so were you for
> that matter. We've all been there, and your attitude shows that you've
> already forgotten what it was like to be a newbie.


No.

There is a difference between learning how to use a computer, and buying a
computer knowing nothing at all about how it works or how to use it.

I am well aware of what it is like to be a first-time user - I have
recently (year or two now) started to use Linux - a system radically
different from any version of Micro$oft windows.

Like I said, if they do not know how to shove a CD into a CD-ROM drive and
how to select all the default settings then they simply should not be even
attempting to use a computer until they have learned what to do - and WHY!

Lennier

 
Reply With Quote
 
Lennier
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:39:44 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

> In my years of PC support I had a practice of encouraging people to learn
> about the workings of their PC. I didn't criticise them for their lack of
> knowledge, didn't treat them as ignorant.


I have been encouraging my workmates to open documents by actually going
to them on the HDD directly via the explorer rather than by opening up M$
Word and searching for them (not just M$ Word files!!) that way.

One of them is finally starting to figure out the reason why I say to do
it that way - and this is more than a year later after first advising her
to do it that way.

Some people really aren't interested in learning how to use a computer
safely.

This same woman has now called for assistance to the IT support company
that my employer uses more than three times that I know of - and all for
mostly inane things.

I s'pose we should be happy with the simple fact that she has finally
gotten her head around much of Micro$oft office - two years down the track
after first joining the company!!!

Lennier

 
Reply With Quote
 
Lennier
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:39:44 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

> Encouragement goes a
> lot further, and gets better results, than criticism or bullying.


Of course.

Lennier

 
Reply With Quote
 
Gavin Tunney
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:28:15 +1300, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:03:28 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:
>
>> I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
>> system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
>> open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
>> run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's easy
>> enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller not
>> patching & updating a new system......except cost.

>
>That was my point. At the moment most retail margins are based on getting
>handed an unopened box from the store room by the sales droid (or sent it
>directly from the distributor). Prices would have to increase to do more
>than that.
>
>


That's a fair point. But I'd also ask are we making excuses for them,
when they really should be taking a more responsible approach that
others take as a matter of course..? Should the bigger resellers be
allowed to abrogate what most of us would consider to be our
responsibilities?

I'd be really surprised if they're not legally liable for instances
like what Marks posted. Surely that would come under the CGA... not
fit for the purpose etc.

<snip>
>I am a huge supporter of small businesses getting machines from local
>assemblers for those exact reasons. To me only large organisations are
>justified going with the Dells and HPs etc of this world.
>


>> Would also point out that enabling the firewall by default only
>> addresses known problems...it's no magic bullet. Worms & viruses by
>> their very nature are always unknown problems, but at least a PC can be
>> set up to preclude known faults.

>
>You've got it round the wrong way. A firewall isn't for known problems -
>that's what the patching is for. A network worm (as opposed to an email
>worm) can't get you if it can't initiate a connection to your listening
>services.
>
>The point of me mentioning the firewall being enabled by default was so
>that you wouldn't get compromised on your way to Windows Update (or the
>Apple, Linux etc equivalents) - which seems to be what these recent
>complaints are about. It is very conceivable that a new computer could be
>owned by a worm in the time it takes to do the first Windows Update even
>if that was the first thing done online - especially with a slow
>connection.
>


Uhh.. wondered where you were headed there. Was looking at it
differently, thinking along the lines of the next worm will just
exploit an as yet unknown hole in the firewall

>And patching isn't your magic bullet because giving someone a fully
>patched machine that is then left alone is not much better than giving
>them an unpatched one. Firewalls give people enough of a buffer to get
>their patches installed.
>


True. Half a point each?

GT
 
Reply With Quote
 
SharkSYA
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003

"Gavin Tunney" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:20:21 +1300, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:32:07 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder the same, especially from the retail shops like Harvey Norman,
> >> Dick Smith, Warehouse etc. It doesn't sit well with me that users are
> >> left to fend for themselves in situations like that. It's one thing for
> >> users to run attachments when they shouldn't, but turning on a new
> >> machine that's going to get infected straight out of the box without
> >> user intervention is a bit rough IMO. What's everyone's views, should
> >> they be going out the door unpatched?

> >
> >People can't really expect commodity PCs to be completely patched out of
> >the box. It might be possible for a low volume/boutique white box
> >assembler to do that, but if the users don't have a clue (and aren't
> >willing to learn) about firewalls and patching it will only delay the
> >inevitable.
> >
> >I don't think things will improve until the firewall is turned on by
> >default (after XP SP2 apparently). How long it takes manufacturers to
> >incorporate that into their default images is anyones guess.
> >
> >(Most) People end up learning what liquids need to be periodically put in
> >their car, they are just going to have to learn the equivalent knowledge
> >about their computers.
> >

>
> Aye, but no-one buys a car that doesn't already have liquid in it. I
> see it as coming down to the legal & ethical responsibilities of the
> seller Anton, pretty sure that certain software issues like Mark's
> example would classify as a genuine 'fault' & be subject to the usual
> laws on that sort of thing. Is also an ethical issue, would you hand
> over an unpatched new PC to a user?
>
> I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
> system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
> open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
> run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's
> easy enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller
> not patching & updating a new system......except cost.
>
> Whenever I've supplied a PC I patched it before installing it.
> Admittedly I've always done mostly business support, but updating a
> new machine is done because it's the right thing to do. Whenever I've
> sorted out a PC for friends etc I've always made sure it's fully
> updated before unleashing it on them & leaving them to it.
>
> Would also point out that enabling the firewall by default only
> addresses known problems...it's no magic bullet. Worms & viruses by
> their very nature are always unknown problems, but at least a PC can
> be set up to preclude known faults.



Well said that man!



--
SharkSYA
>
> GT



 
Reply With Quote
 
AD.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 04:21:13 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

>>That was my point. At the moment most retail margins are based on getting
>>handed an unopened box from the store room by the sales droid (or sent it
>>directly from the distributor). Prices would have to increase to do more
>>than that.
>>

> That's a fair point. But I'd also ask are we making excuses for them, when
> they really should be taking a more responsible approach that others take
> as a matter of course..?


I'm not making excuses at all, but mainstream consumer expectations would
have to change before most computers got shipped your way - and I would
applaud it. It is not only better for the consumers, it is better for the
local industry.

Customers would have to start thinking of computers as complex machines
that are best 'customised' to their needs rather than just boxes that you
take home from electronic appliance shops.

Savvy customers already realise this and get their stuff from local
assemblers that can and will offer ongoing support. When the customer is a
small business these suppliers even get to understand the customers
business, gain their trust and make intelligent suggestions for them.

They aren't going to get that ordering a Dell over the phone or picking up
a Packard Bell (ick) from Harvey Normans.

But you already knew that

The 'industry' is trying hard to move to being more like the consumer
electronics industry, so I doubt it would turn out the way I'd like
though.

> Should the bigger resellers be allowed to
> abrogate what most of us would consider to be our responsibilities?


I think it's more a matter of customer education than changing the way
computers are supplied. And should be the responsibility of the bigger
resellers.

As customers become better educated their expectations will change. As
time goes on the proportion of naive users will decrease enough to the
point where most will know about the need for patching and firewalls etc -
they might not understand how they work, but they will understand the need
for them. Because ultimately there is no way around it no matter how well
the machine is set up before it leaves the shop.

Just like people do understand the need to get their cars serviced every
now and then, it will eventually be something that people are just aware
of. People know they can't blame the car dealer if they neglect to
put oil in it for years and years and it seizes up - and one day they will
realise the same about not patching their computers. I'm not sure how long
that will take - it is slowly starting to sink in though.

Cheers
Anton
 
Reply With Quote
 
Edmond Lo
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
How come we are looking for OEM to provide patch for the OS? Shouldn't it be
the responsibility of M$. Shouldn't they send out patch CDs to the OEM or to
people who have registered their copy of Windows....


"Enkidu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:41:40 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
> >contain an updated machine.
> >That is what I would expect from Dell for example
> >

> You'd be wrong to assume that a machine from Dell would be up to date.
> Dell, being a large manufacturer, probably gets pre-imaged hard disks
> from the HDD supplier. Even if the image was updated every time it was
> copied to a HDD (very unlikely) it would likely be a month or two
> before a completed machine arrives on your desk.
>
> The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
> on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff
>
> --
>
> The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
> that the conspiracy is working.



 
Reply With Quote
 
MarkH
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-11-2003
Lennier <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
newsan.2003.12.10.17.36.05.571996@TRACKER:

> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:13:52 +0000, MarkH wrote:
>
>> I regularly deal with people that use E-Mail to keep in touch with
>> children and grand children that are currently living overseas, why
>> should they be denied such useful technology?

>
> I didn't say they should be "denied such useful technology".
>
> I said that if they are *so* ignorant that they cannot even do
> something so simple as shove a CD into a cd-rom drive and turn the
> computer on and select all the default settings then they are too
> ignorant to be even attempting to use a computer.


And how does knowing how to insert a CD and install windows prevent the
customer getting Blaster and Welchia?

Why is it so wrong to buy a PC that comes with the OS that you want anyway
already installed?

Of course the customers I am talking about are able to insert a CD and
install software, but that doesnít mean that they will understand why the
PC should suddenly shut down when they try to connect to the internet.
Does every user need to recognise the symptoms of every virus before they
can buy a PC?

Itís OK for me, I donít even buy PCs, I only buy parts.

But many users are like car drivers, they arenít all mechanics, they just
want to put the key in and start it up. Most computer users would assume
that a vital patch released 3 months ago would be on the new PC already,
how are they supposed to know that it isnít?




--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~markh/
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
REVIEW: "Computer Viruses and Other Malicious Software", Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development Rob Slade, doting grandpa of Ryan and Trevor Computer Security 0 01-12-2011 03:46 AM
I am looking to buy the below Cisco models.I also buy networking andtelecom equipment from Nortel, Brocade, Juniper, Extreme, Foundry, IBM, HP,Companq and more. network buyer Cisco 1 10-13-2010 09:03 AM
AVG found 2 viruses....not sure how to get rid of them. Bud Light Computer Support 2 02-26-2005 03:49 PM
Canon A60 and error 18 - to buy or not to buy Steve Digital Photography 2 12-29-2003 06:51 AM



Advertisments