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Buy PC and get viruses for free.

 
 
Gavin Tunney
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      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:36:05 +1300, Lennier
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:13:52 +0000, MarkH wrote:
>
>> I regularly deal with people that use E-Mail to keep in touch with
>> children and grand children that are currently living overseas, why should
>> they be denied such useful technology?

>
>I didn't say they should be "denied such useful technology".
>
>I said that if they are *so* ignorant that they cannot even do something
>so simple as shove a CD into a cd-rom drive and turn the computer on and
>select all the default settings then they are too ignorant to be even
>attempting to use a computer.
>


David I have to say you always come across as being condescending when
you make comments like this. Everyone has to start somewhere, when I
first sat at a PC I was just as ignorant as any first-time user....so
were you for that matter. We've all been there, and your attitude
shows that you've already forgotten what it was like to be a newbie.

In my years of PC support I had a practice of encouraging people to
learn about the workings of their PC. I didn't criticise them for
their lack of knowledge, didn't treat them as ignorant. I never
looked down on them or sneered at their mistakes. In return they all
reacted positively to that encouragement & quietly gained a degree of
self-sufficiency over time. Most of my users can look after themselves
& give me few problems, and more importantly they knew they could call
me & ask a question without being treated like a fool.

Occasionally I get a bit impatient, but only when the odd person
refuses to learn something... or neglect to do their backups.
Encouragement goes a lot further, and gets better results, than
criticism or bullying.

Gavin
 
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Bret
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      12-10-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:03:28 GMT, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (Gavin Tunney)
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:20:21 +1300, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:32:07 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder the same, especially from the retail shops like Harvey Norman,
>>> Dick Smith, Warehouse etc. It doesn't sit well with me that users are
>>> left to fend for themselves in situations like that. It's one thing for
>>> users to run attachments when they shouldn't, but turning on a new
>>> machine that's going to get infected straight out of the box without
>>> user intervention is a bit rough IMO. What's everyone's views, should
>>> they be going out the door unpatched?

>>
>>People can't really expect commodity PCs to be completely patched out of
>>the box. It might be possible for a low volume/boutique white box
>>assembler to do that, but if the users don't have a clue (and aren't
>>willing to learn) about firewalls and patching it will only delay the
>>inevitable.
>>
>>I don't think things will improve until the firewall is turned on by
>>default (after XP SP2 apparently). How long it takes manufacturers to
>>incorporate that into their default images is anyones guess.
>>
>>(Most) People end up learning what liquids need to be periodically put in
>>their car, they are just going to have to learn the equivalent knowledge
>>about their computers.
>>

>
>Aye, but no-one buys a car that doesn't already have liquid in it. I
>see it as coming down to the legal & ethical responsibilities of the
>seller Anton, pretty sure that certain software issues like Mark's
>example would classify as a genuine 'fault' & be subject to the usual
>laws on that sort of thing. Is also an ethical issue, would you hand
>over an unpatched new PC to a user?
>
>I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
>system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
>open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
>run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's
>easy enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller
>not patching & updating a new system......except cost.
>
>Whenever I've supplied a PC I patched it before installing it.
>Admittedly I've always done mostly business support, but updating a
>new machine is done because it's the right thing to do. Whenever I've
>sorted out a PC for friends etc I've always made sure it's fully
>updated before unleashing it on them & leaving them to it.
>
>Would also point out that enabling the firewall by default only
>addresses known problems...it's no magic bullet. Worms & viruses by
>their very nature are always unknown problems, but at least a PC can
>be set up to preclude known faults.
>
>GT


A good common sense post Gavin I agree entirely, and try to provide
the same level of service to my customers.
 
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DUser
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-10-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:03:28 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:20:21 +1300, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 02:32:07 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder the same, especially from the retail shops like Harvey Norman,
>>> Dick Smith, Warehouse etc. It doesn't sit well with me that users are
>>> left to fend for themselves in situations like that. It's one thing for
>>> users to run attachments when they shouldn't, but turning on a new
>>> machine that's going to get infected straight out of the box without
>>> user intervention is a bit rough IMO. What's everyone's views, should
>>> they be going out the door unpatched?

>>
>>People can't really expect commodity PCs to be completely patched out of
>>the box. It might be possible for a low volume/boutique white box
>>assembler to do that, but if the users don't have a clue (and aren't
>>willing to learn) about firewalls and patching it will only delay the
>>inevitable.
>>
>>I don't think things will improve until the firewall is turned on by
>>default (after XP SP2 apparently). How long it takes manufacturers to
>>incorporate that into their default images is anyones guess.
>>
>>(Most) People end up learning what liquids need to be periodically put in
>>their car, they are just going to have to learn the equivalent knowledge
>>about their computers.
>>

>
> Aye, but no-one buys a car that doesn't already have liquid in it. I
> see it as coming down to the legal & ethical responsibilities of the
> seller Anton, pretty sure that certain software issues like Mark's
> example would classify as a genuine 'fault' & be subject to the usual
> laws on that sort of thing. Is also an ethical issue, would you hand
> over an unpatched new PC to a user?
>
> I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
> system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
> open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
> run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's
> easy enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller
> not patching & updating a new system......except cost.
>
> Whenever I've supplied a PC I patched it before installing it.
> Admittedly I've always done mostly business support, but updating a
> new machine is done because it's the right thing to do. Whenever I've
> sorted out a PC for friends etc I've always made sure it's fully
> updated before unleashing it on them & leaving them to it.
>
> Would also point out that enabling the firewall by default only
> addresses known problems...it's no magic bullet. Worms & viruses by
> their very nature are always unknown problems, but at least a PC can
> be set up to preclude known faults.
>
> GT


Its a minefield
I think your bespoke practice is ideal, but it doesn't suit all of the
retail distribution models.
There are retail chains where any buyer with a clue would prefer to get
the PC in sealed packaging with all of the components included, including
manufacturers warranty.
The excuse of cost is valid. Who pays ? Who assumes liability for the
service paid for ?
If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
contain an updated machine.
That is what I would expect from Dell for example
I would not be too happy with the PFY at the local 100% appliance store
doing updates

 
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DUser
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      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:36:05 +1300, Lennier wrote:

>
> I said that if they are *so* ignorant that they cannot even do something
> so simple as shove a CD into a cd-rom drive and turn the computer on and
> select all the default settings then they are too ignorant to be even
> attempting to use a computer.
>
> Lennier


Its a tautology.
Why did you bother posting it ?
You are saying if they can't use it because they are ignorant then they
are too ignorant to use it.

 
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Enkidu
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      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:41:40 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
>contain an updated machine.
>That is what I would expect from Dell for example
>

You'd be wrong to assume that a machine from Dell would be up to date.
Dell, being a large manufacturer, probably gets pre-imaged hard disks
from the HDD supplier. Even if the image was updated every time it was
copied to a HDD (very unlikely) it would likely be a month or two
before a completed machine arrives on your desk.

The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.

Cheers,

Cliff

--

The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
that the conspiracy is working.
 
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AD.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-10-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:03:28 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:

> I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
> system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
> open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
> run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's easy
> enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller not
> patching & updating a new system......except cost.


That was my point. At the moment most retail margins are based on getting
handed an unopened box from the store room by the sales droid (or sent it
directly from the distributor). Prices would have to increase to do more
than that.


> Whenever I've supplied a PC I patched it before installing it.
> Admittedly I've always done mostly business support, but updating a new
> machine is done because it's the right thing to do. Whenever I've sorted
> out a PC for friends etc I've always made sure it's fully updated before
> unleashing it on them & leaving them to it.


Yep, as I mentioned that is what a lot of smaller white box assemblers and
system integrators actually do and your customers see the value in that.
The one off non technical retail customers are a different bunch, and they
wouldn't see why they were paying more. They are expecting a computer to
be more like a DVD player or a stereo.

For various (mostly misguided) reasons a lot of non technical customers
seem scared of getting computers from small local companies.

I am a huge supporter of small businesses getting machines from local
assemblers for those exact reasons. To me only large organisations are
justified going with the Dells and HPs etc of this world.

> Would also point out that enabling the firewall by default only
> addresses known problems...it's no magic bullet. Worms & viruses by
> their very nature are always unknown problems, but at least a PC can be
> set up to preclude known faults.


You've got it round the wrong way. A firewall isn't for known problems -
that's what the patching is for. A network worm (as opposed to an email
worm) can't get you if it can't initiate a connection to your listening
services.

The point of me mentioning the firewall being enabled by default was so
that you wouldn't get compromised on your way to Windows Update (or the
Apple, Linux etc equivalents) - which seems to be what these recent
complaints are about. It is very conceivable that a new computer could be
owned by a worm in the time it takes to do the first Windows Update even
if that was the first thing done online - especially with a slow
connection.

And patching isn't your magic bullet because giving someone a fully
patched machine that is then left alone is not much better than giving
them an unpatched one. Firewalls give people enough of a buffer to get
their patches installed.

Cheers
Anton
 
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AD.
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-10-2003
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:24:33 +0000, MarkH wrote:

> I was setting the machine up to connect to the internet, the customer had
> not make a successful connection. It was connected for less than 30
> seconds. How does the end user get security updates of the internet
> before their machine is infected?


By enabling the firewall before going online. This will be the default
configuration for XP soon according to MS.

Cheers
Anton
 
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DUser
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      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:23:31 +1300, Enkidu wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:41:40 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
>>contain an updated machine.
>>That is what I would expect from Dell for example
>>

> You'd be wrong to assume that a machine from Dell would be up to date.
> Dell, being a large manufacturer, probably gets pre-imaged hard disks
> from the HDD supplier. Even if the image was updated every time it was
> copied to a HDD (very unlikely) it would likely be a month or two
> before a completed machine arrives on your desk.
>
> The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
> on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff


Could I assume that a new Dell would have the firewall enabled ?
It would save them a lot of support grief for the hard disk image to have
this default.

 
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Enkidu
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      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:53:41 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:23:31 +1300, Enkidu wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:41:40 +1300, DUser <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>If the distribution is a sealed box model, then the sealed box should
>>>contain an updated machine.
>>>That is what I would expect from Dell for example
>>>

>> You'd be wrong to assume that a machine from Dell would be up to date.
>> Dell, being a large manufacturer, probably gets pre-imaged hard disks
>> from the HDD supplier. Even if the image was updated every time it was
>> copied to a HDD (very unlikely) it would likely be a month or two
>> before a completed machine arrives on your desk.
>>
>> The best an outfit like Dell could do would be to provide a CD image
>> on their site for a reasonably recent patch level.

>
>Could I assume that a new Dell would have the firewall enabled ?
>It would save them a lot of support grief for the hard disk image to have
>this default.
>

My guess is no. This is not currently the default on any newly
installed Windows Operating System.

Cheers,

Cliff
--

The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
that the conspiracy is working.
 
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Enkidu
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-10-2003
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:28:15 +1300, "AD." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:03:28 +0000, Gavin Tunney wrote:
>
>> I don't see any reason why a reseller can't supply a fully patched
>> system, there's no requirement for any special CDs. They just have to
>> open the box and hook the PC up to a Windows update server. Can either
>> run their own server or connect to MS thru their router. Hell, it's easy
>> enough with modern machines, there are no excuses for a reseller not
>> patching & updating a new system......except cost.

>
>That was my point. At the moment most retail margins are based on getting
>handed an unopened box from the store room by the sales droid (or sent it
>directly from the distributor). Prices would have to increase to do more
>than that.
>

Not to mention the fact that a shop will rarely have a LAN connection
to the Internet.

Cheers,

Cliff
--

The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
that the conspiracy is working.
 
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