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xtra - apalling service + brain dead help desk = catastrophic failure

 
 
Warwick
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
I know this is a familar them however the conversation I just had with
Culpis and xtra help desk defies imagination.

I've got an obligation to play in an online tournament and I can't
access the server - or the server status page.

Traces reveal a problem at PAIX - Global Gateway is not onward
delivering my packets to Hurricane Electric.

So I call xtra help.
Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
Warwick: I beg to differ, you have a contract with your peer in USA
who is obliged to onward deliver packets to other servers.
Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
Warwick: If there is a peering problem in my signal path my first line
of inquiry is with my ISP, you should either change your peer or re
route my signal.
Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
Warwick: Would you mind then if I called your peering partner in
California and asked them instead? I am sorry to be insistent but I
must contact the host of this tournament and explain why I can't play
when I am supposed to and arrange a new date/time or I will be
disqualified.
Culpis: No I can't provide you with that information.
Warwick: Lets say a ship ran over the subsea cable and every website
outside of NZ was unavailable. Whose problem is that?
Culpis: Good question.
Warwick: Can you then at least provide me with an ETA for resolution?
Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.

<click>

So I've probably done my entry fee and since I had advanced 2 rounds
already my chances of a prize were at worst 1 in 8.

cheers
Warwick


PS - a coupla traces , ive chopped the last 21 hops off the nz one
snce they are all request timed outs (we never got to the dest IP so
the trace is still incrementing ttl and firing away at nothing till it
gets to 30 hops).

The other one was run by an AOL customer to the same IP.

C:\DOCUME~1\WARWIC~1>tracert login.gamesgrid.com

Tracing route to beech.gamesgrid.com [216.218.245.195]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 118 ms 109 ms 118 ms 192.168.242.74
2 109 ms 109 ms 109 ms 192.168.242.77
3 120 ms 119 ms 119 ms 192.168.237.38
4 160 ms 159 ms 159 ms 202.49.160.33
5 119 ms 120 ms 119 ms a4-0-0-11.ipa1-r16-5.xtra.co.nz
[203.96.111.49]

6 130 ms 129 ms 129 ms GGI-MDR-INT.xtra.co.nz
[203.96.111.206]
7 250 ms 250 ms 250 ms p1-7.sjbr1.global-gateway.net.nz
[202.37.246.146
]
8 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms p0-3-0-0.pabr3.global-gateway.net.nz
[202.37.246
..201]
9 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms sntcca2lce1.wcg.net [198.32.176.139]
<thats as far as this trace will run>
..
..
..
1 214 ms 236 ms 223 ms rt-ntcte02.proxy.aol.com [198.81.18.91]

2 220 ms 239 ms 232 ms wc1-ntc-G3-1-0.proxy.aol.com [198.81.18.123]

3 208 ms 219 ms 219 ms pop3-ntc-P7-0.atdn.net [66.185.142.117]

4 236 ms 199 ms 199 ms bb2-ntc-P1-0.atdn.net [66.185.142.114]

5 217 ms 239 ms 239 ms bb2-sjg-P6-0.atdn.net [66.185.152.119]

6 235 ms 199 ms 199 ms bb1-sjg-P2

7 274 ms 321 ms 309 ms bb1-ash-P14-0.atdn.net [66.185.153.58]

8 413 ms 299 ms 299 ms pop2-ash-P0-0.atdn.net [66.185.139.209]

9 316 ms 297 ms 279 ms HurricaneElectric.atdn.net [66.185.151.150]

10 276 ms 299 ms 299 ms pos7-0.gsr12012.pao.he.net [216.218.254.205]

11 277 ms 319 ms 308 ms pos2-0.gsr12012.fmt.he.net [64.62.249.121]

12 306 ms 279 ms 280 ms 216

13 280 ms 319 ms 279 ms beech.gamesgrid.com [216.218.245.195]


 
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T.N.O.
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
"Warwick" wrote
> Warwick: Would you mind then if I called your peering partner in
> California and asked them instead? I am sorry to be insistent but I
> must contact the host of this tournament and explain why I can't play
> when I am supposed to and arrange a new date/time or I will be
> disqualified.


It is outside of Xtra's network, it isn't there problem...

The owner of the last IP is:
Final results obtained from whois.arin.net.
Results:

OrgName: Exchange Point Blocks
OrgID: EPB
Address: PO 12317
City: Marina del Rey
StateProv: CA
PostalCode:
Country: US

NetRange: 198.32.0.0 - 198.32.255.255
CIDR: 198.32.0.0/16
NetName: NET-EP-1
NetHandle: NET-198-32-0-0-1
Parent: NET-198-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: DOT.EP.NET
NameServer: FLAG.EP.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1997-06-09
Updated: 2001-12-17

TechHandle: WM110-ARIN
TechName: Manning, Bill
TechPhone: +1-310-322-8102
TechEmail: http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-10-12 19:15
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.


There is there phone number, give them a call...


 
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T.N.O.
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      10-14-2003
"T.N.O." wrote
> It is outside of Xtra's network, it isn't there problem...


err, "their problem"


 
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T.N.O.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
"max" wrote
> > 9 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms sntcca2lce1.wcg.net [198.32.176.139]
> ><thats as far as this trace will run>


> I am having the same problem connecting to the same location, as per
> my post above. Whose problem is it? It is also affecting paradise. It
> has only happened today. I can connect via callplus going through
> gblx.net, but not through global-gateway.net.nz using xtra???
> Weird


See my other post... not on Xtra's or Paradise's networks, not their
problem.


 
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max
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:56:32 +1300, Warwick <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I know this is a familar them however the conversation I just had with
>Culpis and xtra help desk defies imagination.
>
>I've got an obligation to play in an online tournament and I can't
>access the server - or the server status page.
>
>Traces reveal a problem at PAIX - Global Gateway is not onward
>delivering my packets to Hurricane Electric.
>
>So I call xtra help.
>Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
>Warwick: I beg to differ, you have a contract with your peer in USA
>who is obliged to onward deliver packets to other servers.
>Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
>Warwick: If there is a peering problem in my signal path my first line
>of inquiry is with my ISP, you should either change your peer or re
>route my signal.
>Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
>Warwick: Would you mind then if I called your peering partner in
>California and asked them instead? I am sorry to be insistent but I
>must contact the host of this tournament and explain why I can't play
>when I am supposed to and arrange a new date/time or I will be
>disqualified.
>Culpis: No I can't provide you with that information.
>Warwick: Lets say a ship ran over the subsea cable and every website
>outside of NZ was unavailable. Whose problem is that?
>Culpis: Good question.
>Warwick: Can you then at least provide me with an ETA for resolution?
>Culpis: If you can connect to the internet its not our problem.
>
><click>
>
>So I've probably done my entry fee and since I had advanced 2 rounds
>already my chances of a prize were at worst 1 in 8.
>
>cheers
>Warwick
>
>
>PS - a coupla traces , ive chopped the last 21 hops off the nz one
>snce they are all request timed outs (we never got to the dest IP so
>the trace is still incrementing ttl and firing away at nothing till it
>gets to 30 hops).
>
>The other one was run by an AOL customer to the same IP.
>
>C:\DOCUME~1\WARWIC~1>tracert login.gamesgrid.com
>
>Tracing route to beech.gamesgrid.com [216.218.245.195]
>over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
> 1 118 ms 109 ms 118 ms 192.168.242.74
> 2 109 ms 109 ms 109 ms 192.168.242.77
> 3 120 ms 119 ms 119 ms 192.168.237.38
> 4 160 ms 159 ms 159 ms 202.49.160.33
> 5 119 ms 120 ms 119 ms a4-0-0-11.ipa1-r16-5.xtra.co.nz
>[203.96.111.49]
>
> 6 130 ms 129 ms 129 ms GGI-MDR-INT.xtra.co.nz
>[203.96.111.206]
> 7 250 ms 250 ms 250 ms p1-7.sjbr1.global-gateway.net.nz
>[202.37.246.146
>]
> 8 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms p0-3-0-0.pabr3.global-gateway.net.nz
>[202.37.246
>.201]
> 9 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms sntcca2lce1.wcg.net [198.32.176.139]
><thats as far as this trace will run>
>.
>.
>.
>1 214 ms 236 ms 223 ms rt-ntcte02.proxy.aol.com [198.81.18.91]
>
>2 220 ms 239 ms 232 ms wc1-ntc-G3-1-0.proxy.aol.com [198.81.18.123]
>
>3 208 ms 219 ms 219 ms pop3-ntc-P7-0.atdn.net [66.185.142.117]
>
>4 236 ms 199 ms 199 ms bb2-ntc-P1-0.atdn.net [66.185.142.114]
>
>5 217 ms 239 ms 239 ms bb2-sjg-P6-0.atdn.net [66.185.152.119]
>
>6 235 ms 199 ms 199 ms bb1-sjg-P2
>
>7 274 ms 321 ms 309 ms bb1-ash-P14-0.atdn.net [66.185.153.58]
>
>8 413 ms 299 ms 299 ms pop2-ash-P0-0.atdn.net [66.185.139.209]
>
>9 316 ms 297 ms 279 ms HurricaneElectric.atdn.net [66.185.151.150]
>
>10 276 ms 299 ms 299 ms pos7-0.gsr12012.pao.he.net [216.218.254.205]
>
>11 277 ms 319 ms 308 ms pos2-0.gsr12012.fmt.he.net [64.62.249.121]
>
>12 306 ms 279 ms 280 ms 216
>
>13 280 ms 319 ms 279 ms beech.gamesgrid.com [216.218.245.195]
>



I am having the same problem connecting to the same location, as per
my post above. Whose problem is it? It is also affecting paradise. It
has only happened today. I can connect via callplus going through
gblx.net, but not through global-gateway.net.nz using xtra???
Weird
 
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T.N.O.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
"max" wrote
> >See my other post... not on Xtra's or Paradise's networks, not their
> >problem.


> But it is a problem with their providers, or their providers provider,
> so it is still their problem, or at least they should be more helpful
> in resolving it.


So you want Jo helpdesk to start making international calls on their phone
logon... doubt it, at best they'll notice a few people bitch about not being
able to play some game, tell their supervisors, and it might go further if
your lucky... alternatly, you could email the guy which I gave you the
address of, and ask him as it seems to be his machine that wont pass the
packets.


 
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AD.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:04:10 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:

> "Warwick" wrote
>> Warwick: Would you mind then if I called your peering partner in
>> California and asked them instead? I am sorry to be insistent but I
>> must contact the host of this tournament and explain why I can't play
>> when I am supposed to and arrange a new date/time or I will be
>> disqualified.

>
> It is outside of Xtra's network, it isn't there problem...


Not necessarily. Xtra's routing tables could be outdated or screwed up and
sending some traffic where it shouldn't go.

OK that's not the most likely explanation, but ISPs do have a
responsibility to report these issues to their backbone providers and
peers etc.

Cheers
Anton
 
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max
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:18:01 +1300, "T.N.O." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"max" wrote
>> > 9 290 ms 290 ms 290 ms sntcca2lce1.wcg.net [198.32.176.139]
>> ><thats as far as this trace will run>

>
>> I am having the same problem connecting to the same location, as per
>> my post above. Whose problem is it? It is also affecting paradise. It
>> has only happened today. I can connect via callplus going through
>> gblx.net, but not through global-gateway.net.nz using xtra???
>> Weird

>
>See my other post... not on Xtra's or Paradise's networks, not their
>problem.
>



But it is a problem with their providers, or their providers provider,
so it is still their problem, or at least they should be more helpful
in resolving it.
 
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Warwick
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:04:10 +1300, "T.N.O." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Warwick" wrote
>> Warwick: Would you mind then if I called your peering partner in
>> California and asked them instead? I am sorry to be insistent but I
>> must contact the host of this tournament and explain why I can't play
>> when I am supposed to and arrange a new date/time or I will be
>> disqualified.

>
>It is outside of Xtra's network, it isn't there problem...
>
>The owner of the last IP is:
>Final results obtained from whois.arin.net.
>Results:
>
>OrgName: Exchange Point Blocks
>OrgID: EPB
>Address: PO 12317
>City: Marina del Rey
>StateProv: CA
>PostalCode:
>Country: US
>
>NetRange: 198.32.0.0 - 198.32.255.255
>CIDR: 198.32.0.0/16
>NetName: NET-EP-1
>NetHandle: NET-198-32-0-0-1
>Parent: NET-198-0-0-0-0
>NetType: Direct Assignment
>NameServer: DOT.EP.NET
>NameServer: FLAG.EP.NET
>Comment:
>RegDate: 1997-06-09
>Updated: 2001-12-17
>
>TechHandle: WM110-ARIN
>TechName: Manning, Bill
>TechPhone: +1-310-322-8102
>TechEmail: (E-Mail Removed)
>
># ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-10-12 19:15
># Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
>
>
>There is there phone number, give them a call...
>



Thanks for that, should have thought of whois myself, but I'd much
rather xtra did it - I could easily get the run around so Ill try an
email first. Maybe this is a political issue with peers in US.

You maybe right - maybe its not xtra's problem.
This means they haven't bothered to bind someone at the other end of
the subsea cable into a contract for onward delivery of packets.
This means they are a less than perfect ISP.

I know Gamesgrid have a contract with HE, if my traces indicated a
fault at HE I can page or make a call and have the router reset within
10 minutes. I either want that kind of result, or an explanation as to
whats going on.

I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
best
Warwick

 
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AD.
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-14-2003
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:26:31 +1300, T.N.O. wrote:

> So you want Jo helpdesk to start making international calls on their phone
> logon...


No, they escalate it to the routing guys to deal with.

> doubt it, at best they'll notice a few people bitch about not
> being able to play some game, tell their supervisors, and it might go
> further if your lucky...


What does happen is different to what should happen. Shouldn't we demand
better?

> alternatly, you could email the guy which I gave
> you the address of, and ask him as it seems to be his machine that wont
> pass the packets.


Nice in theory, but these providers usually don't support end users. You
usually have to be a backbone peer or ISP etc to get direct support. An
end user traceroute might not be enough to tell where the problem is if
it's a routing error a hop or two back from where the trace stopped.

Cheers
Anton
 
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