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Re: LINUX

 
 
Enkidu
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      08-16-2003
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:44:57 +1200, "cowboyz" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:
>
>"Peter" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> this quote is from cowboyz of Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:26 :
>> >
>> > Havent used Debian or redhat but Mandrake uses .rpms as well. And then
>> > we start the dependancy war. You can say, just click on the package and
>> > it will download and install everything you need. Not so true at all.
>> > In fact, it is click on the package and then get a pen and paper cause you
>> > will need it to list the dependancy issues and wrong version numbers,

>>
>> I've used Linux for a couple of years (Redhat and Mandrake) and haven't
>> seen any problems like this.

>
>My girlfriend has been driving for 14 years and has never used the rear
>window demister.
>
>> Dependency issues only arise if you want to install something way different
>> to what you have already installed.

>
>Are you kidding? Are you actually suggesting that one stick to what they
>are given "out of the box" to remain trouble free? Isn't this the big
>"selling" point for Linux? That it is so powerful and configureable?
>

That's not the same as sticking to "out of the box" packages. However,
the RH distributions contains almost anything you might want.

>> A distro like Mandrake has _lots_ of apps - if you stick to these, you
>> shouldn't have any dependency problems.

>
>Lots is a big subjective but it has a few. I wanted to rip and convert DVD
>though. No programs installed on default to do that.
>

There's no default program, no, but if you looked you'd almost
cetainly find some.
>>
>> Sometimes you may need to use other apps, and there are tools to sort the
>> dependencies for you. On Mandrake, there is the GUI software tool in the
>> MDK control centre,

>
>Thats where I got tidied up with dependancy issues! It does try hard but
>fails to sort out all the dependancies required.
>

RPM DOES sort out the dependencies. I presume that these GUI tools are
front ends to RPMIf the dependencies can't be resolved, then the
package is broken. The one and only time I had dependency problems in
several years of use was when I wanted a Mandrake rpm that wasn't in
the RH distribution. Don't install any package that requires you to
force the package on. It's broken.
>
>For what it is worth, I solved all the dependancy issues myself manually but
>it is not a walk in the park.
>

You can practically guarantee that it will come back and bite you on
the bum later.

Cheers,

Cliff
--

Signed and sealed with Great Seal of the Executive
Council of the Internet, by The Master of The Net.
 
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Peter
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      08-16-2003
this quote is from cowboyz of Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:44 :
> Are you kidding? Are you actually suggesting that one stick to what they
> are given "out of the box" to remain trouble free? Isn't this the big
> "selling" point for Linux? That it is so powerful and configureable?


The point is that you can install a very wide range of apps out of a distro
without any dependency problems.
Yes, you can go further, installing other apps, or even writing your own.
This takes a little more skill and attention, depending what you want to
do. (But it is not necessary for most ordinary users.)

> I wanted to rip and convert DVD though. No programs installed on default
> to do that.


We got that up and running on my son's PC (runs MDK9.1) without any trouble.
It's not in the distro, but installed ok.


You sound quite skilled on Microsoft stuff. However, Linux is different.
It won't do what you want if you use your MS skills, and learning the Linux
way of things does take some time. IMHO it is well worth it.


Peter

 
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cowboyz
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      08-16-2003



"Enkidu" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:44:57 +1200, "cowboyz" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
> >
> >"Peter" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> >news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >> this quote is from cowboyz of Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:26 :
> >> >
> >> > Havent used Debian or redhat but Mandrake uses .rpms as well. And

then
> >> > we start the dependancy war. You can say, just click on the package

and
> >> > it will download and install everything you need. Not so true at

all.
> >> > In fact, it is click on the package and then get a pen and paper

cause you
> >> > will need it to list the dependancy issues and wrong version numbers,
> >>
> >> I've used Linux for a couple of years (Redhat and Mandrake) and haven't
> >> seen any problems like this.

> >
> >My girlfriend has been driving for 14 years and has never used the rear
> >window demister.
> >
> >> Dependency issues only arise if you want to install something way

different
> >> to what you have already installed.

> >
> >Are you kidding? Are you actually suggesting that one stick to what they
> >are given "out of the box" to remain trouble free? Isn't this the big
> >"selling" point for Linux? That it is so powerful and configureable?
> >

> That's not the same as sticking to "out of the box" packages. However,
> the RH distributions contains almost anything you might want.
>
> >> A distro like Mandrake has _lots_ of apps - if you stick to these, you
> >> shouldn't have any dependency problems.

> >
> >Lots is a big subjective but it has a few. I wanted to rip and convert

DVD
> >though. No programs installed on default to do that.
> >

> There's no default program, no, but if you looked you'd almost
> cetainly find some.



I did. using RPMDrake. DVDrip, Drip and transcode and ffmpeg I think it
was called which was the one I used but it was only a command line with no
GUI and I got sick of looking at text. DVDrip had a HEAP of dependancy
issues. Drip and transcode had a few. All installed through RPMDrake and
all falled to sort themselves out.

> >>
> >> Sometimes you may need to use other apps, and there are tools to sort

the
> >> dependencies for you. On Mandrake, there is the GUI software tool in

the
> >> MDK control centre,


Yes RPMDrake.

> >
> >Thats where I got tidied up with dependancy issues! It does try hard but
> >fails to sort out all the dependancies required.
> >

> RPM DOES sort out the dependencies. I presume that these GUI tools are
> front ends to RPMIf the dependencies can't be resolved, then the
> package is broken. The one and only time I had dependency problems in
> several years of use was when I wanted a Mandrake rpm that wasn't in
> the RH distribution. Don't install any package that requires you to
> force the package on. It's broken.


I would think it would tell you the package is broken wouldn't it?

> >
> >For what it is worth, I solved all the dependancy issues myself manually

but
> >it is not a walk in the park.
> >

> You can practically guarantee that it will come back and bite you on
> the bum later.


Hope not.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff
> --
>
> Signed and sealed with Great Seal of the Executive
> Council of the Internet, by The Master of The Net.



--
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."


 
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T.N.O
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      08-16-2003
"Peter" wrote
| I've used Linux for a couple of years (Redhat and Mandrake) and haven't
seen
| any problems like this. Dependency issues only arise if you want to
| install something way different to what you have already installed.

Just to kick you in the teeth, try doing a standard redhat "workstation"
install, then after the machine has finished the install, add the "kernel
source" and see what happens, you get given a list of dependencies, ****ing
annoying, all I wanted was the kernal source to install a freaking modem, a
modem, and now I have a list of dependencies that arent even on the freaking
CD..

This is an example, I have since got all of them and installed it, but
still.


 
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Enkidu
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      08-16-2003
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:14:01 +1200, "T.N.O" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Peter" wrote
>| I've used Linux for a couple of years (Redhat and Mandrake) and haven't
>seen
>| any problems like this. Dependency issues only arise if you want to
>| install something way different to what you have already installed.
>
>Just to kick you in the teeth, try doing a standard redhat "workstation"
>install, then after the machine has finished the install, add the "kernel
>source" and see what happens, you get given a list of dependencies, ****ing
>annoying, all I wanted was the kernal source to install a freaking modem, a
>modem, and now I have a list of dependencies that arent even on the freaking
>CD..
>
>This is an example, I have since got all of them and installed it, but
>still.
>

Heh! I did exactly that the other day, and got no problems whatsoever.
I can only assume that you didn't install any of the development
tools, and that you installed a later version of the kernel than the
one on the CD. I also suppose you are using RPM or one of the GUI
frontends. up2date is better.

Cheers,

Cliff
--

Signed and sealed with Great Seal of the Executive
Council of the Internet, by The Master of The Net.
 
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T.N.O
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      08-17-2003
"Enkidu" wrote
> Heh! I did exactly that the other day, and got no problems whatsoever.


Congrats.

> I can only assume that you didn't install any of the development
> tools


Correct... Im not doing any development, so figured that it would save on
hdd space.

> , and that you installed a later version of the kernel than the
> one on the CD.


nope, using 2.4.2-10 or something... the one from the CD, I had no internet
so couldn't update anything.
I needed interent to get the files needed to get internet... bugger, went
back to Windows, downloaded the files it asked for, then it said that I had
to get more, and those intern asked for more, until I had about 25MB of
files sitting there on my windows partition.

Surely a simple, install this from the CD and grab all necessary
dependencies wouldn't have been hard to make?

> I also suppose you are using RPM or one of the GUI
> frontends. up2date is better.


yep, while I learn, that's how I'll keep it.


 
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Enkidu
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      08-17-2003
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:14:11 +1200, "T.N.O" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>"Enkidu" wrote
>> Heh! I did exactly that the other day, and got no problems whatsoever.

>
>Congrats.
>
>> I can only assume that you didn't install any of the development
>> tools

>
>Correct... Im not doing any development, so figured that it would save on
>hdd space.
>
>> , and that you installed a later version of the kernel than the
>> one on the CD.

>
>nope, using 2.4.2-10 or something... the one from the CD, I had no internet
>so couldn't update anything.
>I needed interent to get the files needed to get internet... bugger, went
>back to Windows, downloaded the files it asked for, then it said that I had
>to get more, and those intern asked for more, until I had about 25MB of
>files sitting there on my windows partition.
>
>Surely a simple, install this from the CD and grab all necessary
>dependencies wouldn't have been hard to make?
>

It is simple if you do it right.

BTW why did you need the kernel source to get a modem to work? I
always start off with the generic modem and then update it later.
Modems don't need to be in the kernel so you would have only needed to
compile a driver (which I've *never* had to do). To compile a driver,
all you need is the kernel *headers*.

Cheers,

Cliff
--

Signed and sealed with Great Seal of the Executive
Council of the Internet, by The Master of The Net.
 
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Allistar
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      08-17-2003
Nicholas Sherlock wrote:

> "cowboyz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bhfsh3$il2$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> It is certainly different and ALOT more complicated. Do not go into it
>> 'comparing' it to windows. The whole structure is completely different

> and
>> you will run into brick wall after brick wall. Install as many devel
>> packs you can find on the initial install because *everything* you want
>> to
>> do will have to be built. This is one of the things that Linux gurus

> will
>> tell you is so great where I just found it a big pain in the arse. If
>> Linux don't like your hardware then your in for a real learning cliff.
>> Definitely dual boot. I spent a month working on Mandrake 9.1 and

> getting
>> it setup and can pretty much do everything that my winXP can do (besides
>> playing games) but I choose to go back to XP. For me it is easier and
>> takes care of all the stuff that I don't want to worry about.

>
> Well, I installed Mandrake 9.1 without *ever* having to go to the
> commandline except to "Log in". I never built anything myself. Running the
> "Update" program meant that I could have the latest versions of all of my
> packages, just like the "Windows Update" feature, but they're not just
> bugfixes .
>
> Cheers,
> Nicholas Sherlock


Hi Nicholas. You denied a few weeks ago that you were anything but
"Microsoft all the way". Are you changing your tune?

I'm pleased you has a pain free Mandrake experience.

Allistar.
 
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T.N.O
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      08-17-2003
"Enkidu" wrote
> BTW why did you need the kernel source to get a modem to work? I
> always start off with the generic modem and then update it later.
> Modems don't need to be in the kernel so you would have only needed to
> compile a driver (which I've *never* had to do). To compile a driver,
> all you need is the kernel *headers*.


Intel 536ep modem, in the install make thing it said that I needed the
kernel source, the kernel headers, and the kernel source headers(from
memory, I don't remember now)


 
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