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DVD-R Discs that will only work on stand-alone recorder...Why?

 
 
Paul Heslop
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      11-18-2007
Amused wrote:
>
> "Paul Heslop" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:
> >
> >> >Yep. I held fire myself til very recently, til I could get a machine
> >> >with all formats and 16X for a reasonable price.
> >>
> >> You bought a whole machine? Have you ever opened a case, or installed
> >> a drive yourself? The way you worded that sounds like you are one of
> >> those dweebs that calls an electrician to get a light bulb changed.

> >
> > :O) It's just the way I write, sometimes the correct word doesn't
> > arrive in time. I meant 'drive'
> >
> > --

>
> I like that phrase. "The correct word doesn't arrive in time." It
> certainly describes many USENET postings..


:O)

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Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 
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Paul Heslop
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
Amused wrote:

> Just a passing observation, with no real support. I have an 18-x rated Sony
> burner. I routinely, manually re-set the burn speed down to at least 12x
> and usually 8x because I was getting too many disks that would appear to
> burn, but fail to play. (Disks are almost exclusively Verbatim. I have
> learned my lesson about buying cheap disks.) I have both Nero and Roxio, as
> well as some others and while the default burn speed is usually,
> "automatic", they do allow a Manuel set.
>
> It may be annoying not to be able to burn at rated speeds, it's MUCH more
> annoying to have to re-burn disks because they won't play.
>
> James...


Yeah, I hear conflicting advice about this too. I tend to let the
machine, or should I say software, choose the speed nowadays but on my
CD burners I almost always found I had to reduce the burn speed, no
matter how fast CD-R were claimed to be able to write.

--
Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 
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Paul Heslop
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
AnimalMagic wrote:

> Have you checked with Sony to see if there is a firmware update?
>


argh! :O)


--
Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 
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Tarkus
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
Paul Heslop wrote:
> Amused wrote:
>
>> Just a passing observation, with no real support. I have an 18-x rated Sony
>> burner. I routinely, manually re-set the burn speed down to at least 12x
>> and usually 8x because I was getting too many disks that would appear to
>> burn, but fail to play. (Disks are almost exclusively Verbatim. I have
>> learned my lesson about buying cheap disks.) I have both Nero and Roxio, as
>> well as some others and while the default burn speed is usually,
>> "automatic", they do allow a Manuel set.
>>
>> It may be annoying not to be able to burn at rated speeds, it's MUCH more
>> annoying to have to re-burn disks because they won't play.
>>
>> James...

>
> Yeah, I hear conflicting advice about this too. I tend to let the
> machine, or should I say software, choose the speed nowadays but on my
> CD burners I almost always found I had to reduce the burn speed, no
> matter how fast CD-R were claimed to be able to write.


Why? I've always found that selecting "Max", my burner and software are
more than capable of negotiating the actual maximum speed available.
 
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Paul Heslop
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
Tarkus wrote:
>


> > Yeah, I hear conflicting advice about this too. I tend to let the
> > machine, or should I say software, choose the speed nowadays but on my
> > CD burners I almost always found I had to reduce the burn speed, no
> > matter how fast CD-R were claimed to be able to write.

>
> Why? I've always found that selecting "Max", my burner and software are
> more than capable of negotiating the actual maximum speed available.


I don't know. Is there a possibility that the computer itself played a
part? The last burner was a Sony, I would get skipping and even a kind
of bleeding between tracks, where if I tried to skip tracks I could
hear the audio from the previous track over the start of the next.
Lots of silly things like that. Reducing burn speed seemed to cure it.
Mind you, I had also heard that Nero 7 had a problem with MP3s and
eventually replaced the relevant file with one from Nero 6, but then I
kind of stopped burning CD-R around that time so never gave it a
thorough testing. It may have been the real problem.


--
Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 
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Amused
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Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
"AnimalMagic" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:32:19 -0600, "Amused" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>>"Paul Heslop" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Tarkus wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul Heslop wrote:
>>>> > dmcg wrote:
>>>> >> I recently purchased a spindle of TDK-R (16x) discs that are
>>>> >> unrecognizable on my PC and unburnable, using NERO, ROXIO and
>>>> >> imgburn. I'm running Windows XP, SP2. The discs work fine on my
>>>> >> stand-
>>>> >> alone LITE-0N DVD recorder and I've since been able to burn TDK-R's,
>>>> >> from another spindle, on my PC.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Has anyone else run across this kind of problem or know of a reason
>>>> >> why this phenomenon might exist. Thanks in advance to whomever can
>>>> >> offer some insight.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> D.
>>>> >
>>>> > your burner may be incompatible or may need a firmware upgrade. If
>>>> > it's an older one it may not be able to cope with the speed of the
>>>> > discs without an upgrade.
>>>>
>>>> Aren't all discs backwards compatible all the way to 1x? I don't see
>>>> where the speed of the discs is an issue. Their listed speeds are the
>>>> maximum, not the minimum.
>>>
>>> I am sure I have seen it mentioned that 16X speed discs may not be
>>> compatible with some drives which the firmware was not written for
>>> 16X. I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :O)
>>>
>>> actually, on a little google I just found this and it's a bit scary,
>>> but hopefully doesn't apply in this case
>>>
>>> http://www.tiktak-it.co.uk/acatalog/...D-R_Discs.html
>>>
>>> "TDK DVD-R - 4.7GB - 16x speed - box of 10 jewel cases. Ref: TDK-6153
>>> DVD-R47CBEC10: TDK high performance write once DVD minus discs
>>> (DVD-R). Box of 10 individual jewel cases. These single sided discs
>>> provide the standard 4.7GB data capacity and are rated 1x - 16x speed
>>> (ver 2.1 rev 6.0). It should be noted that use in incompatible
>>> recorders may lead to permanent damage to the recorder. The disc can
>>> store 4 hours of video capacity in EP mode (VHS quality) or 2 hours in
>>> SP mode (DVD quality)."
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul (We won't die of devotion)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> Stop and Look
>>> http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/

>>
>>
>>Just a passing observation, with no real support. I have an 18-x rated
>>Sony
>>burner. I routinely, manually re-set the burn speed down to at least 12x
>>and usually 8x because I was getting too many disks that would appear to
>>burn, but fail to play. (Disks are almost exclusively Verbatim. I have
>>learned my lesson about buying cheap disks.) I have both Nero and Roxio,
>>as
>>well as some others and while the default burn speed is usually,
>>"automatic", they do allow a Manuel set.
>>
>>It may be annoying not to be able to burn at rated speeds, it's MUCH more
>>annoying to have to re-burn disks because they won't play.
>>
>>James...

>
>
> Most current, well made drives will burn at max speed, and be readable
> on any drive.
>
> The reason is that the lasers have multiple power settings. The old
> drives had a single power setting, which gave rise to a contrast ratio
> issue on the written data.
>
> Have you checked with Sony to see if there is a firmware update?
>
> They are likely not using the right power setting for the higher speed
> burns.
>
> I currently burn all my discs at the max rate, and haven't experienced
> a read issue in years. But contrast ratio is the reason and low burn
> power is the cause,
>
> I have HP and LG drives.


It's a Sony G170S, less than three months old.
Sony AW-G170S 18X Double Layer (8.5GB) DVD+-RW Dual Drive, SATA drive. I
suppose there might be a firmware updates, but I have to admit, I've never
thought about checking.

Oh, geeze.....looks like there maybe an update...

Kinda hard to tell...

http://liggydee.cdfreaks.com/page/en/Optiarc-AD-7170A/

I think I'll just leave well enough, alone...


 
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ChairmanOfTheBored
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      11-18-2007
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:10:50 -0600, "Amused" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>"AnimalMagic" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:32:19 -0600, "Amused" <(E-Mail Removed)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Paul Heslop" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> Tarkus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Heslop wrote:
>>>>> > dmcg wrote:
>>>>> >> I recently purchased a spindle of TDK-R (16x) discs that are
>>>>> >> unrecognizable on my PC and unburnable, using NERO, ROXIO and
>>>>> >> imgburn. I'm running Windows XP, SP2. The discs work fine on my
>>>>> >> stand-
>>>>> >> alone LITE-0N DVD recorder and I've since been able to burn TDK-R's,
>>>>> >> from another spindle, on my PC.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Has anyone else run across this kind of problem or know of a reason
>>>>> >> why this phenomenon might exist. Thanks in advance to whomever can
>>>>> >> offer some insight.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> D.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > your burner may be incompatible or may need a firmware upgrade. If
>>>>> > it's an older one it may not be able to cope with the speed of the
>>>>> > discs without an upgrade.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aren't all discs backwards compatible all the way to 1x? I don't see
>>>>> where the speed of the discs is an issue. Their listed speeds are the
>>>>> maximum, not the minimum.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure I have seen it mentioned that 16X speed discs may not be
>>>> compatible with some drives which the firmware was not written for
>>>> 16X. I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :O)
>>>>
>>>> actually, on a little google I just found this and it's a bit scary,
>>>> but hopefully doesn't apply in this case
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tiktak-it.co.uk/acatalog/...D-R_Discs.html
>>>>
>>>> "TDK DVD-R - 4.7GB - 16x speed - box of 10 jewel cases. Ref: TDK-6153
>>>> DVD-R47CBEC10: TDK high performance write once DVD minus discs
>>>> (DVD-R). Box of 10 individual jewel cases. These single sided discs
>>>> provide the standard 4.7GB data capacity and are rated 1x - 16x speed
>>>> (ver 2.1 rev 6.0). It should be noted that use in incompatible
>>>> recorders may lead to permanent damage to the recorder. The disc can
>>>> store 4 hours of video capacity in EP mode (VHS quality) or 2 hours in
>>>> SP mode (DVD quality)."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Paul (We won't die of devotion)
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Stop and Look
>>>> http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
>>>
>>>
>>>Just a passing observation, with no real support. I have an 18-x rated
>>>Sony
>>>burner. I routinely, manually re-set the burn speed down to at least 12x
>>>and usually 8x because I was getting too many disks that would appear to
>>>burn, but fail to play. (Disks are almost exclusively Verbatim. I have
>>>learned my lesson about buying cheap disks.) I have both Nero and Roxio,
>>>as
>>>well as some others and while the default burn speed is usually,
>>>"automatic", they do allow a Manuel set.
>>>
>>>It may be annoying not to be able to burn at rated speeds, it's MUCH more
>>>annoying to have to re-burn disks because they won't play.
>>>
>>>James...

>>
>>
>> Most current, well made drives will burn at max speed, and be readable
>> on any drive.
>>
>> The reason is that the lasers have multiple power settings. The old
>> drives had a single power setting, which gave rise to a contrast ratio
>> issue on the written data.
>>
>> Have you checked with Sony to see if there is a firmware update?
>>
>> They are likely not using the right power setting for the higher speed
>> burns.
>>
>> I currently burn all my discs at the max rate, and haven't experienced
>> a read issue in years. But contrast ratio is the reason and low burn
>> power is the cause,
>>
>> I have HP and LG drives.

>
>It's a Sony G170S, less than three months old.
>Sony AW-G170S 18X Double Layer (8.5GB) DVD+-RW Dual Drive, SATA drive. I
>suppose there might be a firmware updates, but I have to admit, I've never
>thought about checking.
>
>Oh, geeze.....looks like there maybe an update...
>
>Kinda hard to tell...
>
>http://liggydee.cdfreaks.com/page/en/Optiarc-AD-7170A/
>
>I think I'll just leave well enough, alone...
>

I'm sure that the official Sony site would be the correct place to
look. A lot of those third party "updates" are hacks to kill the region
code, etc.
 
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Gordon Burditt
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-15-2007
>>your burner may be incompatible or may need a firmware upgrade. If
>>it's an older one it may not be able to cope with the speed of the
>>discs without an upgrade. If you know the exact model of the burner
>>check the website for any firmware updates.

>
>
> Bullshit. A higher "speed of disc" will burn at a slower speed in ANY
>burner.


I wish this was true, but it isn't. The media vendors don't agree
with that, and some even say so on the outside of the package.

About a quarter of the DVD media packages on sale at Fry's in
Arlington yesterday have a notice on the spindle saying that you
may need to upgrade your drive firmware to use these disks (pretty
much all 16x) in older drives. Yes, they are talking about not
being able to burn 16x media (or 8x media) at 4x on an older 4x
drive. There might be more than that with the notices, but I was
only looking at the outside of the package, and some of them might
have been inside. These notices aren't new. They've been around
for a couple of years.

I don't remember whether the problem applied to only DVD+R media,
only DVD-R media, or both. There was also, at the same time, the
same issue between 4x DVD*RW media and drives capable of doing 2x
on RW media.

They don't put notices like that on media for one Pioneer drive
that had problems. As I recall, they gave references for several
major manufacturers, not just one. A firmware upgrade for my
Panasonic DMR-E85H (standalone DVD recorder) specifically said it
was for higher-speed media, but that it wouldn't raise the speed
limit on the drive. There was also an HP drive I had to upgrade.

The story I recall from about 3 years ago was that when they were
coming up with and standardising 8x media around 2004, they could
either get it to work reliably at 8x, or they could get existing
4x drives to work reliably at 4x *without a change in the laser
write strategy*, but not both at the same time.

So they made it work at 8x reliably, and came up with a new strategy
for 4x drives recording at 4x on 8x media, and *any* drives made
before that decision need a firmware upgrade to write 8x media at
4x (or possibly even write 8x media at 1x). Now, that doesn't mean
that trying to use 8x media in an old 4x drive will automatically
fail. It might work unreliably. Some 8x media might even work,
mostly.

If the drive can do 8x or higher, it's OK (at least for this issue, and
this may exclude pre-prototype drives that somehow still survive).
If the drive has firmware after the change, it should be OK. If
the drive only does 4x or less, and it was manufactured before 2004
or so, and hasn't had a firmware update since, it might have problems
using 8x or 16x media.

I don't know whether there was a similar problem between drives made
for 8x and newer 16x media.


> You need to "cope with" keeping your bullshit to yourself.



 
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Paul Heslop
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Posts: n/a
 
      12-16-2007
Gordon Burditt wrote:
>
> >>your burner may be incompatible or may need a firmware upgrade. If
> >>it's an older one it may not be able to cope with the speed of the
> >>discs without an upgrade. If you know the exact model of the burner
> >>check the website for any firmware updates.

> >
> >
> > Bullshit. A higher "speed of disc" will burn at a slower speed in ANY
> >burner.

>
> I wish this was true, but it isn't. The media vendors don't agree
> with that, and some even say so on the outside of the package.
>
> About a quarter of the DVD media packages on sale at Fry's in
> Arlington yesterday have a notice on the spindle saying that you
> may need to upgrade your drive firmware to use these disks (pretty
> much all 16x) in older drives. Yes, they are talking about not
> being able to burn 16x media (or 8x media) at 4x on an older 4x
> drive. There might be more than that with the notices, but I was
> only looking at the outside of the package, and some of them might
> have been inside. These notices aren't new. They've been around
> for a couple of years.
>
> I don't remember whether the problem applied to only DVD+R media,
> only DVD-R media, or both. There was also, at the same time, the
> same issue between 4x DVD*RW media and drives capable of doing 2x
> on RW media.
>
> They don't put notices like that on media for one Pioneer drive
> that had problems. As I recall, they gave references for several
> major manufacturers, not just one. A firmware upgrade for my
> Panasonic DMR-E85H (standalone DVD recorder) specifically said it
> was for higher-speed media, but that it wouldn't raise the speed
> limit on the drive. There was also an HP drive I had to upgrade.
>
> The story I recall from about 3 years ago was that when they were
> coming up with and standardising 8x media around 2004, they could
> either get it to work reliably at 8x, or they could get existing
> 4x drives to work reliably at 4x *without a change in the laser
> write strategy*, but not both at the same time.
>
> So they made it work at 8x reliably, and came up with a new strategy
> for 4x drives recording at 4x on 8x media, and *any* drives made
> before that decision need a firmware upgrade to write 8x media at
> 4x (or possibly even write 8x media at 1x). Now, that doesn't mean
> that trying to use 8x media in an old 4x drive will automatically
> fail. It might work unreliably. Some 8x media might even work,
> mostly.
>
> If the drive can do 8x or higher, it's OK (at least for this issue, and
> this may exclude pre-prototype drives that somehow still survive).
> If the drive has firmware after the change, it should be OK. If
> the drive only does 4x or less, and it was manufactured before 2004
> or so, and hasn't had a firmware update since, it might have problems
> using 8x or 16x media.
>
> I don't know whether there was a similar problem between drives made
> for 8x and newer 16x media.


Pretty much the way i understood it too. I didn't know the ins and
outs but I know I've read it more than once. Actually, I think when
the OP said which drive he had I doubted this was the problem, but I'd
rather cover all bases than miss the right one.

--
Paul (We won't die of devotion)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 
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